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Very poor article (Watercooling and electrochemistry)

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BillA said:
SysCrusher
since chlorine is the 'disinfectant' of choice here in the US (in almost all municipalities), despite it's virtual banning in Europe, you should keep an eye on your Al

and note that once the pitting has initiated it can be quite vexing to stop
takes a good inhibitor and some time to be effective
(my experience over several years with mixed-metals systems)

be cool

Chlorine seems to be the catylist for cell pitting with a mixed metals. Maybe the chlorine breaks the metals down? From what I hear it takes a good acid bath to stop the pitting. I'll give it another two weeks and see what my Al block looks like. Then change to distilled water. I plan on making the block from copper but since I have quite a bit Al to try designs with I'll use that until I'm satisfied with my block.
 
K2 said:

SysCrusher:

I am all in favour of more experiments, but I think the results obtained would have greater value if all metal parts are weighed before and after. Sometimes corrosion is in detectible with the naked eye, a properly calibrated scale will reveal all. Also you should have some kind of circulation in the liquid, to better mimic water cooling conditions. Unfortunately I don’t have access to a proper lab at the moment, but I might be able to persuade a friend to help.

I would use some sort of scale to measure weight.

K2 said:

If your local water supply is of good quality, you might not get any problems what so ever, but 2 weeks is a bit early to tell, I would keep an eye on it though.

LOL My local water here in Florida is the worst I seen. I have a small 1,500 dollar water filtration system in my house. That takes out the disolved minerals and just barely gets most of the chlorine out. The chlorine is so bad here the drinking water can be used in a public swimming pool. Trust me i tested it!

From test that I have seen at Boeing, with results available to the public, it takes atleast 300 hours before pitting occures and this test involved anodized aluminium. So anodizing Al isn't going to help to much more.

Let me add, the test was done with salt water.

I'm building a new water cooled system so with the info I got here about the grounding I'll keep that in mind during the build and see what happens.
 
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I read that allowing tap water to sit in a open bucket for a few days, perferably in sunlight, will get rid of all the chlorine
 
Why don't we all reach some decisive conclusion in this thread and then
post it as a separate sticky thread?

Here's my version of this (rather long at that):

In typical watercooling setup consisting of mixed cooper/aluminum components
there are two distinct types of galvanic corrosion possible:

1) Galvanic corrosion as we usually understand it (aka "battery effect") -
two or more distinct parts of different types of material in contact with
electrolyte and connected electrically.

This problem in turn has several solutions:

(a) one of the most effective would be breaking electrical contact
between the cooper-aluminum parts. This means not connecting them
in any way with metals and also preventing them from being grounded.
So plastic hoses, plastic mounting screws, rubber pads and grommets etc.

(b) tempting way of solving this would imply removing the electrolyte
or effectively reducing the conductive properties of coolant. Now
pure water is not conductive, but that does not mean that putting DI
water would solve the problem. No matter what you put in the system
it will quickly become contaminated due to the large number of
foreign and often unknown substances involved. There are metals
themselves, metal oxides, hoses residue, organic residue, and god
knows what the insides of a typical radiator/heatercore looks like
but imho just the acid flux from soldering is enough. Partial way out
would be to flush the system with large quantities of DI water
initially but this would be really expensive and effective only to a
certain (unknown) extent.
Now the real reason to use DI water is that this way no additional
contaminants would be introduced into the system.

(c) using chemical treatments such as "water wetter" to inhibit
corrosion. Again just slows down the rate of the corrosion so by
itself is probably sufficient just for some lengths of time. On the
positive side improves thermal properties and keeps life out. So
adding it is a matter of "good housekeeping".



2) Pitting - most common type, usually mistaken for effect of #1 but has little
to do with it. It is in fact "micro"-galvanic corrosion occurring to
the aluminum parts of the setup. This is due to the use of alloy aluminum as
oppose to pure metal.
The galvanic corrosion occurs on the surface of
the material where foreign metals are clustering in high enough numbers to
disrupt the protective aluminum oxide surface film. The electrolyte
contacts the surface and galvanic reaction occurs between surrounding
aluminum and alloy metal with aluminum being consumed as an anode.
More details are available here.

Typically not "life-threatening" and has only aesthetic effects
since formation of hydrofobic and insoluble aluminum hydroxide
clogs the pit. But in the presence of acid hydroxide reacts with it
thus making the pit open and allowing the corrosion process to continue.
Some acidcan be contained in the add-ons to coolants depending on the mixture
and some can be present in the system initially (water soluble acid flux?).

The solution would be to use pure aluminum, but due to availability,
price, and difficulties with machining this is a die-hard way.
Anodizing could help but may be cost prohibitive on a DIY level.
Using DI water is a definite must because it's the way to get rid of
any halogen ions ( F, Cl, Br, I) as they play most important part in
pitting.

The way out is the good olde all cooper system:) if one wishes to commit to WC.



Additional points:

By DI i mean at the very least distilled, better home deionized, the overkill
is lab grade deionized water.

Use of sacrificial anode could help #1: a piece of Zn or Mg in contact
with both electrolyte and the Al part should do the trick.

Most often encountered in typical system is #2 and not #1 judging by
the kind of damage observed (cells or pits) ,but again both are
possible so the best way would be to design system keeping in mind
both kinds of problem.


weird formatting eh.
 
walkerIV
I think I have some 'difficulties’ with your summary:

re galvanic corrosion
I understood K2's point to be that galvanic corrosion is not a factor in WCing systems
(and, with my limited knowledge in this area, I believe that he is correct)
- the fact that WCers are mis-using this term to describe something else, pitting or cell corrosion, means that 'our' terminology needs to be revised to reflect the 'real' definitions used by practitioners in the field

I believe that any discussion of DI water is pointless in the extreme. WCers do not typically have access to DI water and, as you and many others point out, once DI water is placed in a mixed metals system it is no longer DI water.

An interesting question is the 'typical' contamination/impurity level in commercial distilled water; the supermarket 1 gal stuff.
- anyone know ? (if there even are 'specs' or ind stds ??)
(I do believe that the Cl ions are low in distilled water, by extension I'd think those others, F, BR and I would be also)

I am confused by your remark that pitting is:
"Typically not "life-threatening" and has only aesthetic effects
since formation of hydrofobic (ed. ??) and insoluble aluminum hydroxide
clogs the pit. But in the presence of acid hydroxide reacts with it
thus making the pit open and allowing the corrosion process to continue."
- the first part seems to contradict the second

and I do quite disagree; the effects of pitting are far more than cosmetic as all of the AL rad failures, and attack, that I have seen are due to pitting (which I am guilty of considering as 'galvanic')
- and the corrosion byproduct will loosen and accumulate in various places within the WCing system leading to a performance impairment that will be more than cosmetic (i.e. measurable)

inhibitors are almost a separate topic, and some things that seem 'obvious' may not be quite so
- WW works, also at stopping in-process pitting over time, but has its own 'baggage'
(the soluble oil precipitates, and when thick enough sloughs off as ropy tendrils)

we do agree that copper/brass is a lot easier

I would suggest that you NOT say one thing when you 'mean' another
DI water is a well defined term, use it that way
as is distilled
no idea what "home deionized" might refer to

you have repeated an error which has already been alluded to in this thread
-> Zn will not do the trick with Cu and Al; pure Mg only

be cool
 
""I understood K2's point to be that galvanic corrosion is not a factor in WCing systems
(and, with my limited knowledge in this area, I believe that he is correct)
- the fact that WCers are mis-using this term to describe something else, pitting or cell corrosion, means that 'our' terminology needs to be revised to reflect the 'real' definitions used by practitioners in the field"

Correct.

As far as I recall, "standard" DI water has impurities at a level of about 50-100 ppm (parts per million), chloride probably even lower. You can get destilled water, for sensitive analysis, with contamination levels of <1 ppb (parts per billion), but that is expensive and overkill for normal watercooling.

I think WalkerIV's remark about pitting not being "life threatening" comes from the pitting article I originally linked to http://www.eaa.net/transportation/corrosion_pitting.asp. It is correct with regards to the automative industry (heatercores excluded), as the article is referring to. In watercolling pitting is definetely life threatening, as you have a steady flow of reactants to the "pit", and a steady removal of corrosion products.
 
BillA said:

An interesting question is the 'typical' contamination/impurity level in commercial distilled water; the supermarket 1 gal stuff.
- anyone know ? (if there even are 'specs' or ind stds ??)
(I do believe that the Cl ions are low in distilled water, by extension I'd think those others, F, BR and I would be also)

For what it's worth, I measured the resistance of supermarket distilled water at roughly twice the resistance of my tap water using copper electrodes taped to a plastic cup. (I posted details, but I wasn't able to find them last I looked.) I was definitely unimpressed. There's no lack of calcium or iron in my tap water.

Out of curiosity, I dumped a little Water Wetter into the cup with distilled and tap, and in both cases ended up at roughly twice the resistance of distilled water. (I say, "ended up", because the resistance took a big downward spike when the Water Wetter was poured in, and then gradually climbed up to a fairly stable resistance over 5 minutes.)
 
hmm . . .
we could be descending (again) into the bowels of Water Wetter world
WW is basic, and has a synthetic solubile (for a while) oil (Redline's actual product)
so the resistance change is easy enough to understand

anyone ever seen a lab analysis of 'supermarket' distilled water ?
(the $0.69/gal stuff)

be cool
 
Quite interesting.

As walkerIV has stated. I vote for the sticky thing.

As I understood it, Galvanic corrossion and pitting are to separate beast but I don't think Galvanic corrosion should not be left out. Although I see the term Galvanic being missed used and up until I started making my own blocks I didn't know either. I see alot of brass barbs being used on aluminium blocks also and I think people should know about galvanic corrosion when it comes to that. A lexen/aluminium top should be used with a aluminium block.

Pitting seems to be more of a problem when it comes to WC. I still am not clear about the grounding issue. Once your block is touching the cpu die, it's grounded.
 
what would make sense to me is that it does not mattter if a part of your wc system is grounded, what does matter is if a cu part and an al part are both grounded at same time, thus constituting an electrical connection. actually, grounding one part might be advisable, for safety reasons.
 
OK i was wrong in my original 'summary' in a number of ways, most of them were graciously pointed out by BillA.

Just to make sure: pitting IS galvanic corrosion on a very small scale. So the term galvanic corrosion is applicable to typical results. It's like calling rust on the car oxidation; technically it's correct but is associated with bigger phenomena.

By home deionized i meant one of those home filtering systems, some of them are quite effective. At the very least one can freeze the water to ice and use top part of the ice cube to get relativly pure water.

Here's another try you might not like it since it's very close to plagiarism, but it's the best i can think of atm.
Basicly i picked all the more or less certain points from all the posts in this thread and mashed them together in somewhat of an order to form a backbone for something better:

Even though aluminium is thermodynamically very reactive, it is in fact very stable in aqueous solutions, with pH values between 5 and 8. It is a known fact that aluminium’s primary corrosion product Al2O3, has the exact same crystal structure as pure aluminium. This means that newly formed Al2O3 will cover the pure aluminium and shield it form further corrosion. This protective layer is extremely thin, but it is sufficient to make aluminium fairly corrosion resistant. Chloride (Cl-) will destroy the protective layer, therefore it not recommended to use tap water in water-cooling. In some parts of the world they even add chlorine to the tap water to kill bacteria. It is quite common for people to use coolants that promote galvanic corrosion. Some have even added bleach to their water as a biocide.

Electrons are not soluble in water! Even if aluminium did not have its protective coating, the reaction would stop fast as the remaining aluminium would become negatively charged. The same goes for copper . The electrons need to “go” somewhere. They could be “used” in a reduction of an ion in the solution, but if you use distilled water in your setup there are no positive ions to accept these extra electrons, so again no corrosion (pure water does contain H3O+, but in very small amounts ~10-7M). And while the resistance of DI water is measured in Megohms, this value plummets immediatly when in contact with Cu or Al

There are a couple of conditions that need to be fulfilled for galvanic corrosion to occur.

1. Electrical contact between to dissimilar metals.
2. An electrolyte.

I will not go into the reactions, as they are specific to each system according to the electrolyte. In a normal water cooling setup, a copper water block and an aluminium heater core are separated by hoses. Hoses (PVC or silicone) are very poor electric conductors, therefore there is no electrical contact between the to metals, and hence no corrosion. If you use distilled or demineralised water, the electrolyte concentration is so low that you need not worry about galvanic corrosion.

Galvanic corrosion has been seen in many CPU watercooling circumstances. Particularly in these cases:

· Mixed copper and aluminum waterblock.

· Aluminum block with brass barbs.

· Copper block with aluminum barbs.

If a small chip of copper is loosened from the copper block, gets stuck in an aluminium radiator and you are using tap water, you will see galvanic corrosion. The corrosion rate is very hard to predict, but it will most likely be very low.

Aluminium-alloy 6061 I believe includes Magnesium, Zinc, Copper with the bulk of it being Aluminium. Aluminium-alloy 6061 has a good corrosion resistance because of this but I wouldn't say that its completely corrosion resistant although it's better than pure aluminium.

If in fact you did have galvanic corrosion, it would be uniform, spread out over the entire aluminium surface, that is the very nature of galvanic corrosion. The observed corrosion of aluminium is often localized pitting and not uniform, this type of corrosion is referred to as pitting and not galvanic corrosion. Pitting corrosion is related to impurities in aluminium, so the purer the aluminium, the less likely corrosion will be. But you can never get aluminium clean enough to avoid pitting, instead you must preserve the oxide layer, by avoiding chlorine.You must avoid chlorine ions (Cl-) if you have aluminium in your setup, that pretty much excludes tap water, especially if your local water supplier adds chlorine to the water to kill bacteria. I think http://www.dansdata.com/burning.htm is a textbook example of pitting.

Galvanic corrosion can easily be avoided by making sure your rad and/or WB is not grounded. You could mount your rad with rubber washers, no galvanic corrosion.



All intellectual properties contained above belong to their respective owners.
I'll edit to delete the above at the first mention of any party involved.
It's by no means a finished product and lots of polishing is reqrd.
Any constructive criticism is welcome.
 
It think it is nice of you to try and recap the disucssion in this thread, but IMHO it is not sticky material yet. When you cut and paste from different posts, it gets kind of messy and one tends to loose overview, I know I do.

walkerIV said:
Just to make sure: pitting IS galvanic corrosion on a very small scale. So the term galvanic corrosion is applicable to typical results. It's like calling rust on the car oxidation; technically it's correct but is associated with bigger phenomena.

I hate to be the stone in your shoe, but pitting is not galvanic corrosion. There are similarities but they are not the same. The whole point of my little crusade was to educate people about the differences.

walkerIV said:
Galvanic corrosion has been seen in many CPU watercooling circumstances. Particularly in these cases:

Any constructive criticism is welcome.

I have yet to see any examples of galvanic corrosion, the corrosion examples i have seen to date have been pitting. It might have happend, but I personally havent seen it.

This topic deserves an article, but due to the complexity of it, I think it is wiser to start from scratch. I might find time during next week to write something, and SysCrusher if you do some experiments, I would be very interested in hearing the results.
 
SysCrusher

if you do some experimenting, you might want to hit the library first

ASTM has all kinds of procedures covering 'corrosion' testing (not on-line, although the index is)
weight loss is possibly the most common, look in the "C" series

be cool
 
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I wouldn't mind doing the experiments but I have nothing to measure weight loss accurately. I don't think my kitchen scale will do the trick. Only thing I have to go on is by sight.
 
a problem, particularly as the amts are quite small
they cover pitting also but again (I seem to recall) the quantification is by weight

you might dig around on the Redline site, one of those inhibitor mfgrs had some coupon data
I'm sure this has been done a thousand times, its out there somewhere

be cool
 
Libraries? Those things still exist?

seriously though, i have access to scales which measure to a ridiculous decree, something like 100th of a gram if memory serves. i would be more than happy to do some testing. i did some quick googeling, but it didn’t come up with any how to's, just companies with corrosion testing capabilities. i might stop off at the local library and see if they have any ASTM material, although i doubt it. i also have access to industry quality di water.
 
Just took my block apart to look inside (trashed my rad trying to make a bleeder valve.). What I seen was the mineral deposits from the tap water itself and right under it was the pitting which was cleaned away with a dremmil. It wasn't to bad. So I'm questioning if it really is the mix of aluminium or copper because I don't think it is. I use an aluminim black and copper rad. I think it's more the mineral deposits in the water itself which end up clinging to the aluminium because it ends up being the anode.

Either way, it's distilled water for me. Tap water will kill your system within a month or so.
 
A few comments:

1) As mentioned (repeatedly), it is difficult to avoid the introduction of ions in water. CO2 gas partitions according to Henry's Law, and then reacts with water to form H2CO3 (carbonic acid). This dissociates to HCO3- and H+, making the pH of rainwater slightly acidic. This process is relatively slow at near neutral pH, however.

One need not invoke CO2 speciation to find ions in normal wcing loops. I would assume that part of the manufacture of the tubing used (unless medical grade is obtained) leaves some residual material. This may contain either ions or organic material that can decompose.

I just spent $7k on a water purification system to make pure water (well as pure as I can afford) out of Reverse Osmosis distilled water. Distillation doesn't remove anywhere near everything; close enough for wcing but NOT for trace analysis.

2) Al3+ does not react to form Al2O3 in water always. The process which guarnatees this (anodization) requires electricity and strong acid. At normal temps in water, Al3+ will react to form amorphous Al(OH)3, which eventually crystallizes to gibbsite (also Al(OH)3). You can place some Al2O3 phases (the gamma) into water and track complete conversion to gibbsite over 30 days or so.

As for the details of the electrochemistry of a wcing rig go, I would have to run some samples on ICP and monitor pH and pE to do the speciation. And I do aqueous geochemistry so no real experience on Al(s) oxidation. Work experience would urge one to not discount the ingenuity of microbes in finding their way where they don't belong (given enough time).
 
h2sammo said:
BillA,
youre the man when it comes to electrochemistry.

'be cool'
noooo, don't think so
look here at K2's posts, or pHaestus
my specific knowledge of chem is close to zip, WCing a bit - but not chem

be cool
 
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