Not really, all D5's are the same. They are just re-labled by the companies that sell them.
Newer doesn't mean better. The D5 has a long history of trouble free use, and is designed and made by one of the worlds largest and most successful pump manufacturers.
The 50X is designed and made by a small water cooling company and has no history besides some testing. There has already been some number of electrical failures with them though.
In regard to the OP, there is no size of rad needed for any loop. It all depends what speed fans you want to use. A 120 rad with very fast fans will cool the same as a 480 rad with slow fans.
For the parts you describe a 480 will work just fine even with low to mid speed fans.
Disagree, a 120.4 will cool the system as stated, but if low FPI rads are to be used with low speed fans more rad will be required to meet optimum temps along with low noise.
If optimum temps are not the goal here one could argue why spend the money on a custom loop at all.
If it were me with a 900 I would roll with 2x 120.4's
But think an additional 120.2 would be adequate as the 970s are very efficient.
2 480 rads are overkill but as long as it will keep my temps low and the fans silent i wouldn't mind, and budget is not an issue when it comes to water cooling with me, because its my first time and i want to do something good and just like i want it to be.
The FPI is what i don't understand, Hardware Labs black ice 480 SR2
The SR2 has 9 FPI and the GTX has 20 FPI, what i do understand is that the 20 FPI means i should put a lot of RPM on the rad and in this case will make a lot of noise but will give performance, and the 9 FPI can run on low RPM fans but will it produce the same results as the GTX with 20 FPI????
2 480 rads are overkill but as long as it will keep my temps low and the fans silent i wouldn't mind, and budget is not an issue when it comes to water cooling with me, because its my first time and i want to do something good and just like i want it to be.
Technically, you could add enough radiator that you could cool the system without fans.
That said, I would go with 6.120 worth for your system, it'll let you run fans on low speed and you'll barely hear them.
Not really, all D5's are the same. They are just re-labled by the companies that sell them.
Newer doesn't mean better. The D5 has a long history of trouble free use, and is designed and made by one of the worlds largest and most successful pump manufacturers.
The 50X is designed and made by a small water cooling company and has no history besides some testing. There has already been some number of electrical failures with them though.
In regard to the OP, there is no size of rad needed for any loop. It all depends what speed fans you want to use. A 120 rad with very fast fans will cool the same as a 480 rad with slow fans.
For the parts you describe a 480 will work just fine even with low to mid speed fans.
No idea where you're getting this misinformation from. Swiftech might be small in employee size but not by much in their sales. They've been around for a very long time and a water cooling reputed company. They are just as competitive as any other reputed water cooling company and one of the few.
Also, the MCP50X is an improvement on the MCP35X, which is an awesome pump.
I'd love to see where you're saying they have been having electrical failures because Google finds nothing about the MCP50X failing.
I'd also love to see the testing that shows your 120mm rad keeping up with a 480mm rad.
+1 Well said. I personally like my SR-1s @ 9 FPI. The SR-2s should be just as good if not better. If you get enough rad you can run it really silent and still get the Delta-Temps you're looking for. 5c-10c is very easy. 5c or less will need lots of heat surface and quality premium fans.
I will not think of adding more rads as overkill for a cpu and 2 gpus, getting 2 480s and 1 360 is even ok with me, but if 2 480s will do a good job in term of temps and silence then its a Go for me because my air cooled old system sound like a generator so i had enough of sounds in my head.
Also, the MCP50X is an improvement on the MCP35X, which is an awesome pump.
I'd love to see where you're saying they have been having electrical failures because Google finds nothing about the MCP50X failing.
I'd also love to see the testing that shows your 120mm rad keeping up with a 480mm rad.
Well, no, he said he would get a D5 pump, and it didn't matter what brand because they are all the same. Which is absolutely true. There was nothing about all pumps.
The 50X is not an improvement of the 35X ... its a completely different design that is cheaper to produce. They can't improve the 35X because it is a patented design. That's why you don't see other pumps with the same hemispherical design. Swiftech may be a fine company in the water cooling world but they certainly aren't Xylem / Laing, one of the worlds largest designers of water pumps.
The 50X may be a fine device, but it simply doesn't have the long, proven track record of the Laing pumps. Time will tell.
For rad performance it shouldn't need any testing, its just a simple logic thing and part of water cooling 101. If a 120 rad is fed by very high speed fans it will dissipate lots of wattage and if a 480 rad is fed by very low speed fans it will dissipate the same wattage. Push 4X the air through a small rad and it is the same as a 480 rad with each fan pushing 1/4 of the air volume.
But, just as an example;
An RS 120 will dissipate 200W at 2500RPM , the 240 at 1150RPM and the 360 at 750RPM. A 480 will do the same at even lower speed. The point isn't that a 120 rad is all anyone needs, it would obviously be very loud, but rather that there is no set size of rad needed. It depends on what speed fans you want to run and what water temps you are OK with.
No idea where you're getting this misinformation from. Swiftech might be small in employee size but not by much in their sales. They've been around for a very long time and a water cooling reputed company. They are just as competitive as any other reputed water cooling company and one of the few.
+1 My thoughts exactly.
Some pumps are rebranded and some are modified, like the Koolance pumps. They get jacked up but create more heat.
I'd also like to see that information about a 120mm rad keeping up with a 480mm.
What misinformation. Swiftech is a small company, to deny that would be crazy, all water cooling companies are because its a niche hobby. They are nothing like the massive multi-national that is Laing Thermotech / Xylem. Laing have millions upon millions to spend on research, testing and refinement. Swiftech would be lucky to have a few million total annual turnover. All that Laing do is design and make pumps of all sizes imaginable. They are experts. There is just no comparison.
D5 pumps are not modified. Koolance sell the PMP450 which is the same D5 Vario that every other company sells, and the PMP450S which is the D5 strong. All they do is put a sticker on it.
This is common knowledge and has been stated as so by most of the companies themselves.
Indeed that is some of the motivation for the 50X pump. Swiftech only made a small profit by relabling existing pumps so they designed their own to keep the profit in house.
Go to the Laing website and you will find there are 4 basic D5 models they produce. The D5 Vario, D5 PWM, D5 basic, and D5 Strong. These are all resold under different names by different companies but they are the same thing. You can peel the stickers off and find the same lables underneath.
The only slightly modified D5 is the Aquacomputer USB D5 where the regular D5 Vario has the manual dial potentiometer replaced with a digital model. It is still the same pump though, only the speed controller is changed.
I have a pmp450 that I converted to USB control.
Well, no, he said he would get a D5 pump, and it didn't matter what brand because they are all the same. Which is absolutely true. There was nothing about all pumps.
The 50X is not an improvement of the 35X ... its a completely different design that is cheaper to produce. They can't improve the 35X because it is a patented design. That's why you don't see other pumps with the same hemispherical design. Swiftech may be a fine company in the water cooling world but they certainly aren't Xylem / Laing, one of the worlds largest designers of water pumps.
The 50X may be a fine device, but it simply doesn't have the long, proven track record of the Laing pumps. Time will tell.
For rad performance it shouldn't need any testing, its just a simple logic thing. If a 120 rad is fed by very high speed fans it will dissipate lots of wattage and if a 480 rad is fed by very low speed fans it will dissipate the same wattage. Push 4X the air through a small rad and it is the same as a 480 rad with each fan pushing 1/4 of the air volume.
But, just as an example; View attachment 158823
An RS 120 will dissipate 200W at 2500RPM , the 240 at 1150RPM and the 360 at 750RPM. A 480 will do the same at even lower speed. The point isn't that a 120 rad is all anyone needs, it would obviously be very loud, but rather that there is no set size of rad needed. It depends on what speed fans you want to run and what water temps you are OK with.
Correct, the MCP35X is a DDC, so they can't change that actual design, but they took what they knew about it and released the new (better) MCP pump. I'd take the MCP50X over it any day.
As your link shows, better flow/pressure for the W/temp/dBa over the MCP35X. And outperformed the D5 a LOT.
I'm still going to disagree, a 120mm rad is NOT enough for anyone. I know a lot of people that would exceed a 120mm rad with just their CPU.
There's diminishing returns (as the chart you posted from Martin shows) on how much extra airflow can dissipate more power.
IIRC, that RS is a mid-high FPI radiator, meaning you wouldn't see good low RPM performance from it.
A low FPI radiator will dissipate heat better at low RPM than a high FPI radiator will, simply because of static pressure requirements. That flips at high RPM though.
Even so, the single 120mm barely even overlaps with the 360mm. A 480 will get even more than the 360 on the low end, I dare-say that the 120 never catches the 480.
Correct, the MCP35X is a DDC, so they can't change that actual design, but they took what they knew about it and released the new (better) MCP pump. I'd take the MCP50X over it any day.
As your link shows, better flow/pressure for the W/temp/dBa over the MCP35X. And outperformed the D5 a LOT.
Even so, the single 120mm barely even overlaps with the 360mm. A 480 will get even more than the 360 on the low end, I dare-say that the 120 never catches the 480.
Specs and performance are just stats and don't really matter if the pump doesn't last. The Koolance PMP500 produces even higher stats and numbers but its really loud doing it so has never really taken off.
The 480 never crossing the 120 is impossible. That chart is just showing the tested speeds. The lines for each rad continue down to zero in real life, so they have to meet at some point. Anyway, its just the principal and theory of how rads work that was the point. A 120 will cool the same as a 480.
The RS rad was a thin and lowish FPI rad. That is why it falls off in performance as airflow gets higher. A thicker and denser rad would perform much better with very high flows.
Who said Laing is a "PC water cooling company"? Fine all they make is a few PC pumps (DDC/D5), that's about it that get re-branded. Can you build a loop just off of Laing? I know which real water cooling companies are out there. Swiftech is one of them and on the other hand has their own patent design pump, hence why its more affordable than the MCP-35x and has higher head pressure.
Of course a radiator with no fans vs one with 5k RPM will come close if not beat it in dissipating heat. Who in their right mind would wants to build a screaming water cooling loop? I feel it defeats the purpose. I know there are some out there on budgets and what not but they might as well stick with air cooling. You will hit a wall much quicker on a 120 than you would with a 480. The 480 has more head room than a 120. Diminishing returns.
Majority do water cooling for the temps, sound and last but not least, the "bling" factor.
Specs and performance are just stats and don't really matter if the pump doesn't last. The Koolance PMP500 produces even higher stats and numbers but its really loud doing it so has never really taken off.
The 480 never crossing the 120 is impossible. That chart is just showing the tested speeds. The lines for each rad continue down to zero in real life, so they have to meet at some point. Anyway, its just the principal and theory of how rads work that was the point. A 120 will cool the same as a 480.
The RS rad was a thin and lowish FPI rad. That is why it falls off in performance as airflow gets higher. A thicker and denser rad would perform much better with very high flows.
I've heard of no rampant issues with the MCP50X, and it has the same MTBF as the MCP35X. Not sure what else you need there.
The 480 will never get anywhere near 120 performance. Period.
And no, they actually don't go to zero. There is such a thing as passive cooling capacity with radiators. Your principal and theory of how rads work is flawed.
Go take a heat transfer or thermodynamics course and then come back telling me they have the same cooling capacity.
ALL RADIATORS will fall off on the top end, it's just where that curve starts to flatten out that's controlled by FPI.
Who said Laing is a "PC water cooling company"? Fine all they make is a few PC pumps (DDC/D5), that's about it that get re-branded. Can you build a loop just off of Laing? I know which real water cooling companies are out there. Swiftech is one of them and on the other hand has their own patent design pump, hence why its more affordable than the MCP-35x and has higher head pressure.
Of course a radiator with no fans vs one with 5k RPM will come close if not beat it in dissipating heat. Who in their right mind would wants to build a screaming water cooling loop? I feel it defeats the purpose. I know there are some out there on budgets and what not but they might as well stick with air cooling. You will hit a wall much quicker on a 120 than you would with a 480. The 480 has more head room than a 120. Diminishing returns.
Majority do water cooling for the temps, sound and last but not least, the "bling" factor.
Nobody said Laing was a watercooling company. So what is the point?
And of course a 120 would not make anybodys idea of a nice effective loop ... nobody said it would.
I've heard of no rampant issues with the MCP50X, and it has the same MTBF as the MCP35X. Not sure what else you need there.
The 480 will never get anywhere near 120 performance. Period.
And no, they actually don't go to zero. There is such a thing as passive cooling capacity with radiators. Your principal and theory of how rads work is flawed.
Go take a heat transfer or thermodynamics course and then come back telling me they have the same cooling capacity.
ALL RADIATORS will fall off on the top end, it's just where that curve starts to flatten out that's controlled by FPI.
Far out, this is getting silly now. Of course they go to zero, At zero airflow there is zero cooling. Passive cooling is just not zero airflow. If you can't follow that then I'm afraid its your understanding that is flawed.
Maybe go do some actual testing and come back with an informed opinion.
It doesn't have to go all the way to zero though for our purposes. The 480 RS would fit into the above chart on a slope that would be around half what the 240 is. Which would make the 200W at around 500RPM. Just as the 360 result is around 1/3 of the 120 result and the 240 is around half of the 120 result. Its not zero, or passive, or any other nonsense.
Far out, this is getting silly now. Of course they go to zero, At zero airflow there is zero cooling. Passive cooling is just not zero airflow. If you can't follow that then I'm afraid its your understanding that is flawed.
Maybe go do some actual testing and come back with an informed opinion.
It doesn't have to go all the way to zero though for our purposes. The 480 RS would fit into the above chart on a slope that would be around half what the 240 is. Which would make the 200W at around 500RPM. Just as the 360 result is around 1/3 of the 120 result and the 240 is around half of the 120 result. Its not zero, or passive, or any other nonsense.
Zero airflow conditions are impossible unless one of two things occur:
- No conductive flow (This would be caused by there being zero temperature differential. For example, when the system is off. If there's heat in the loop there will be airflow.)
- A physical blockage of the radiator has occurred. (Go remove/clean out the blockage.)
Therefore, for all intents and purposes, there is never a zero airflow condition. Hence, saying they don't go to zero.
Do you even know what graph slope is? You're saying they're 1/2, 1/3, etc. They're actually the inverse of that, the steeper the line the higher the slope.
Anyway, you see my point. At minimum RPM, the 480 would be sitting around the same point as the 120 at max RPM. Because that's literally what I was saying earlier, the 120 with high speed fans still can't keep up with a 480 if it has any fan speed at all.
...There also comes a point where a 120mm radiator, no matter how much airflow, will not be able to dissipate any more heat as the cooling surface(fins) cannot take any more heat out. So 50MPH wind or 250MPH wind wouldn't matter as the rad couldn't dissipate any more heat. So no way would a 120 be able to keep up with a 480 rad. That is simple science.
Personally, unless you're going for looks or trying to squeeze a few more MHz from the 980s you don't need to watercool them. The expense wouldn't be justified. Get a couple of Strix. I have one and it barely makes any noise at all. The fan hardly spins up under normal use as the temps barely hit 60c during long gaming. Absolutely the quietest card I have ever had.
...There also comes a point where a 120mm radiator, no matter how much airflow, will not be able to dissipate any more heat as the cooling surface(fins) cannot take any more heat out. So 50MPH wind or 250MPH wind wouldn't matter as the rad couldn't dissipate any more heat. So no way would a 120 be able to keep up with a 480 rad. That is simple science.
A+ above. 120mm with high speed fan will not be able to keep up with 480mm radiator. You keep talking about high speed fan. What kind high you speed did you use? I am whipping Delta fan 38mm thick 5500rpm pwm fan with Black Ice GTX radiators and I am using 120mm x 10 here. Yup all this cooled my system all in one loop nicely.
...There also comes a point where a 120mm radiator, no matter how much airflow, will not be able to dissipate any more heat as the cooling surface(fins) cannot take any more heat out. So 50MPH wind or 250MPH wind wouldn't matter as the rad couldn't dissipate any more heat. So no way would a 120 be able to keep up with a 480 rad. That is simple science.
Zero airflow conditions are impossible unless one of two things occur:
- No conductive flow (This would be caused by there being zero temperature differential. For example, when the system is off. If there's heat in the loop there will be airflow.)
- A physical blockage of the radiator has occurred. (Go remove/clean out the blockage.)
Therefore, for all intents and purposes, there is never a zero airflow condition. Hence, saying they don't go to zero.
Do you even know what graph slope is? You're saying they're 1/2, 1/3, etc. They're actually the inverse of that, the steeper the line the higher the slope.
Anyway, you see my point. At minimum RPM, the 480 would be sitting around the same point as the 120 at max RPM. Because that's literally what I was saying earlier, the 120 with high speed fans still can't keep up with a 480 if it has any fan speed at all.
Once again, still wrong. Zero airflow is easy to achieve, just turn the fans off. A radiator in a case with no fans running is getting zero airflow. A rad in an open test bench gets some airflow because the heat induces air flow. A radiator in an enclosed environment is surrounded by air that is the same temperature and zero cooling is the result.
I do understand the graphs but its pretty obvious you don't or just can't admit you know less than you think you do. The Fan speed needed is roughly 1/2, 1/3 etc for the increasing rad size. 500 RPM is not zero air flow.
The 120 rad needs 2500RPM, the 240 is twice the volume and needs roughly half the speed 1150 RPM. A 480 is twice the volume of the 240 so needs roughly half the fan speed again, or about 500RPM. That is is as simple and basic as I can make it without drawing it in crayon.
You just said the 120 would be at the same point as the 480 but in the same sentence still insist its impossible.
Anyone who thinks a 120 rad will never cool the same as 480 obviously can't follow testing results and very clearly hasn't done any themselves. Its the most basic and simple principle of water cooling. Its so simple a child could follow it. To cool a certain wattage you can either have 4 fans pushing over a large surface area or a single fan pushing 4 times the air volume over a small area. The same volume of air is affected so the same cooling results.
So, do some testing guys. Obtain a good understanding of what you are talking about, and then contribute something useful. Or even like, you know, any sort of evidence at all that you have a clue what you are talking about.
No, a radiator with the fans off will still have a temperature differential with the atmosphere, therefore incurring an airflow through the radiator.
That's simple thermodynamics. Period. It's obvious you know nothing about how heat transfer actually occurs.
I understand the graphs. I also understand that a flatter graph will have a slope closer to zero, when you're saying a steeper graph has a slope closer to zero.
How about this, YOU go do some testing. You're the new kid on the block.
You're ignoring the fact that airflow through a radiator has diminishing returns. Real life doesn't ignore that fact.
Just because you have 4x the airflow through this given radiator doesn't mean you get 4x the cooling! THE GRAPH YOU POSTED SHOWS THIS.
You've got what, four experienced and respected members of the forum saying "you're wrong", but you don't realize it? Sad.
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No idea where you're getting this misinformation from. Swiftech might be small in employee size but not by much in their sales. They've been around for a very long time and a water cooling reputed company. They are just as competitive as any other reputed water cooling company and one of the few.
Well said. I personally like my SR-1s @ 9 FPI. The SR-2s should be just as good if not better. If you get enough rad you can run it really silent and still get the Delta-Temps you're looking for. 5c-10c is very easy. 5c or less will need lots of heat surface and quality premium fans.
