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TLER

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Automata

Destroyer of Empires and Use
Joined
May 15, 2006
NOTE: THIS IS A THREAD SPLIT, HENCE THIS FIRST POST. THIS IS THE PREVIOUS THREAD THAT LEAD TO THIS DISCUSSION.

they already screwed me with the tler debacle.
But, but, but that is a FEATURE. You can't bash them for that, can you?

I'm sure it was added to break their drives in RAID arrays since they have specific "RAID drives" (which they, of course, charge more for). Hard drives worked perfectly fine before that feature and I'm sure their "RAID drives" work fine too.
 
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But, but, but that is a FEATURE. You can't bash them for that, can you?

I'm sure it was added to break their drives in RAID arrays since they have specific "RAID drives" (which they, of course, charge more for). Hard drives worked perfectly fine before that feature and I'm sure their "RAID drives" work fine too.

Actually that was a user configurable feature prior. They just took the user configurable out of it.

Basically the way it worked is, the drives never shipped with any different settings. They all shipped the same way, it's just, the drives prior to a certain date could be configured for better raid card compatibility. Western digital found out that this was being done so they removed a feature, not added one.

I've explained this to you several times including in depth links.

There was a command you could run on a flash drive called tler-off. this USED to work on wd blacks, it no longer does. That's what changed.
 
I'm glad they called back, it definitely changed how I thought of them. Either they reviewed the call or (GASP), read my email submission for their review. In both scenarios, they listened; so I can't fault them for that.

I may consider them in the future, especially if they release a green drive that lacks TLER. I guess this saves me the trouble of replacing all my Western Digital drives on my server and desktop/laptop systems. I'm still selling that external drive when it gets back; I've always had issues with their USB-based external drives becoming non-responsive.

That will never happen. Let me explain it again:

TLER, or time limited error recovery, is a set time limit a drive can go "afk" while it tries to figure out wtf is going on with itself if it finds an issue. That's the time limited bit.

We don't need the absense of TLER, we want the TLER bit set to a shorter time frame (or shortest as can, with perfection being off entirely), as certain cards like the PERC 5/i will mark a drive as "dead" prior to that normally set time; the issue arrises due to a conflict of interest. by setting the time to 8ms i believe which is stock, it's longer than the acceptable 5ms, so that last 3 mseconds, both devices are trying to do the same thing: figure out wtf is wrong. Because the drive doesn't respond when the raid card attempts this, it marks it as dead.

Because the raid card will mark it as dead, we want that time to be lower. We have to give the raid card what it wants, and prior to wd making it an unchange-able feature, we could set that time to be a lower time frame or even turn it off and allow the raid card to do it's job entirely. Basically, that's what was removed.

Basically, it's like the raid card is the raid leader, and if you don't respond to the ready check within it's time limit he's going to questions your availability and readiness. Odds are, you'll get kicked from the raid. The only way to prevent this is to change how quickly you click yes when you get a ready check. If you refuse to answer a ready check until a bit after it's no longer available, we've got a problem (which is what wd drives do)! c wut i did thar?
 
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I see two solutions:

1) Flash the hard drives to a custom/modified firmware
2) Flash the card with a custom/modified firmware that waits longer than TLER is set to

Both should, theoretically, fix it.
 
I see two solutions:

1) Flash the hard drives to a custom/modified firmware
2) Flash the card with a custom/modified firmware that waits longer than TLER is set to

Both should, theoretically, fix it.

Yes, but I don't believe either option is available.
 
With enough effort, either can be done.
 
With enough effort, either can be done.

Why put the effort forward though when you can buy a competitor's drives that didn't see fit to lock you out? That's why I returned that small collection of caviar blacks I had.
 
Thideras,

I really hope your message is read by WDC and by other readers of this forum. I'm on your side. I agree with you 100% as I deal with bad WD drives all the time. I had a few Raptors die and many standard drives fail on me. What ticks me off to no end is a company that dictates on what you should buy based on the task at hand. Every drives firmware should be identical. Green, Blue, Black or VRaptor, if an end user wants to use either drive in a RAID array so be it. I'm currently putting together a two drive NAS. My customer suggested to use (2) 2TB green drives, but I told him you can't, as Western Digital dictates what you can use them for. He was really pissed off, and told him we can use any Samsung or Seagate drives, and he was happy.

I used to buy 2.5" laptop externals like mad. Every week I would get another drive, because they were low cost and work great. I have since switched to Seagate, because WD now includes a non removable bootable partition and screws drive mappings up when plugged into my DVD player that can see Divx files. It can only see one drive, the first one and my DVD player can't see my divx files.

Some of the changes WDC has done is remarkably stupid and is the reason why they're losing money. @WDC Think about the consumer for a change and fix this mess you have started!
 
Like it or not. Samsung and Seagate are going in this direction.

So far, I only see Hitachi being the only manufacturer putting out HDDs that are cheap and capable of being in server environment.
 
Thideras,

I really hope your message is read by WDC and by other readers of this forum. I'm on your side. I agree with you 100% as I deal with bad WD drives all the time. I had a few Raptors die and many standard drives fail on me. What ticks me off to no end is a company that dictates on what you should buy based on the task at hand. Every drives firmware should be identical. Green, Blue, Black or VRaptor, if an end user wants to use either drive in a RAID array so be it. I'm currently putting together a two drive NAS. My customer suggested to use (2) 2TB green drives, but I told him you can't, as Western Digital dictates what you can use them for. He was really pissed off, and told him we can use any Samsung or Seagate drives, and he was happy.

I used to buy 2.5" laptop externals like mad. Every week I would get another drive, because they were low cost and work great. I have since switched to Seagate, because WD now includes a non removable bootable partition and screws drive mappings up when plugged into my DVD player that can see Divx files. It can only see one drive, the first one and my DVD player can't see my divx files.

Some of the changes WDC has done is remarkably stupid and is the reason why they're losing money. @WDC Think about the consumer for a change and fix this mess you have started!

That's an unfair and over simplified statement that lacks background. There are circumstances where having a multitude of products is silly, look at the asus line-up of p45 boards a year back. They had a board at every 5$ price point. Literally, 5$ more got you a different asus board. There had to of been about 10 or 11 p45 boards out at the time and all had varying features and each one a compromise from the last and before the next. It was really wierd...

but in the circumstances of hard drives, your statement is definitely over simplified. So you're saying that there's no call for a WD green? You're saying the package is entirely the same between a WD green and a WD black? They're a different product entirely that operates differently. You've vocalized an irrational expectation that disturbs me a little, being one of our more demanding users in the storage market.

Also, western digital drives will work fine in RAID 1 and RAID 0 configurations, but in RAID 5 where the raid card should handle errors, that's where you'll have problems with TLER. In RAID 0 and 1, the drives still act and are treated as individual drives, but when it comes to RAID 5, a totally different thing occurs. The thing is, neither have any kind of complicated parity built into it. RAID 1 is 1:1, it's just "write the same stuff to both drives".

There's a lot of misinformation in this thread. I'll stick around to clear it up. BTW, WD may be making the best possible choice right now. It seems to be a trend all around the world at the moment, just look at AT&T as a huge example with their 2GB plan atm... a lot of companies are finding that it's easier to scale things back and not provide as much service than it is to continue expanding. Perhaps companies are reaching terminal velocity?

:comp:
 
I would like to clarify the on RAID level issue, since that is the relevant topic. It does not matter what RAID level they are in (0, 1, 5, 10, 50, etc), it causes issues. Do not ever use Greens in RAID for any reason.
 
Man this thread has made me think twice! Never had to RMA a WD drive as every WD I have owned is still going strong.

The TLER issue has put me off getting WD drives for my file server. I am running two of thier "enterprise" class drives on my server right now but I'm looking to upgrade as I am now storing my films on my server. I would love to get some more "RE" class drives for my server but the price per GB is way above any other drives out there.

Shame they make "green" drives for storage but there useless in a RAID setup :(

I'm thinking three samsung 1.5TB drives in RAID 3 after reading this thread.

Really poor WD, get your act together!
 
Man this thread has made me think twice! Never had to RMA a WD drive as every WD I have owned is still going strong.

The TLER issue has put me off getting WD drives for my file server. I am running two of thier "enterprise" class drives on my server right now but I'm looking to upgrade as I am now storing my films on my server. I would love to get some more "RE" class drives for my server but the price per GB is way above any other drives out there.

Shame they make "green" drives for storage but there useless in a RAID setup :(

I'm thinking three samsung 1.5TB drives in RAID 3 after reading this thread.

Really poor WD, get your act together!
Why not blue or black? Those dont have TLER do they?

EDIT: You know, whats really funny to me is I recall someone in this thread having raptor's go bad and they received UPGRADES from WD RMA and are in this thread bitching about the WD RMA process (not OP)? Goes back to how fickle people are sometimes...
 
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Thanks for the info!

I have a couple 1.5TB green drives in my NAS (Dlink DNS-321). From what I can tell and what the device reports, the Raid1 array is doing fine. Is there a chance I got Green drives prior to the forced tler implementation? [Probably manufactured Summer/Fall 2009]
 
I know they started forcing TLER to high numbers before the 1tb release (meaning, mine has it). With RAID 1, you have a bit of a safety net as you can read the data from a single drive. It may give you headaches in the future because the mirror keeps breaking. The array may do fine for awhile, but it could break at any time.
 
Understood. I'm also suspecting the crappy onboard raid in the NAS isn't the best and most reliable solution I could come up with. Inherently I know my solution is flawed anyway. :p
 
Understood. I'm also suspecting the crappy onboard raid in the NAS isn't the best and most reliable solution I could come up with. Inherently I know my solution is flawed anyway. :p
From what I can tell, that is hardware RAID. The device doesn't run an operating system (per se). Not a bad little enclosure. I see reports of RAID 1 rebuilds being a PITA, though. Keep an eye on it.
 
From what I can tell, that is hardware RAID. The device doesn't run an operating system (per se). Not a bad little enclosure. I see reports of RAID 1 rebuilds being a PITA, though. Keep an eye on it.

Yeah, I assume in the case of failure I'd copy the data to an external drive then recreate the entire array. I read those reports as well and it's not worth risking the data or the very slow rebuild times people have quoted. Since I'd backup the data prior to rebuilding it anyway, mind as well start the array fresh, right? :attn:

Best part of the enclosure is the ability to do FTP sharing, and run third party apps like P2P. Email alerts, etc are bonus too. I can't complain for under $100 and it's been rock solid thus far (aside from glitches having to restart the P2P service every few weeks because it stops responding).
 
I would like to clarify the on RAID level issue, since that is the relevant topic. It does not matter what RAID level they are in (0, 1, 5, 10, 50, etc), it causes issues. Do not ever use Greens in RAID for any reason.


+1. This is where I was basing my findings on, you! You've pushed this enough into our heads that the only WD drive designed for RAID was either VRaptors or the actual RAID EDITION drives, which is why they make them and are more expensive for this reason alone!

Aynjell said:
That's an unfair and over simplified statement that lacks background. There are circumstances where having a multitude of products is silly, look at the asus line-up of p45 boards a year back. They had a board at every 5$ price point. Literally, 5$ more got you a different asus board. There had to of been about 10 or 11 p45 boards out at the time and all had varying features and each one a compromise from the last and before the next. It was really wierd...

but in the circumstances of hard drives, your statement is definitely over simplified. So you're saying that there's no call for a WD green? You're saying the package is entirely the same between a WD green and a WD black? They're a different product entirely that operates differently. You've vocalized an irrational expectation that disturbs me a little, being one of our more demanding users in the storage market.

Also, western digital drives will work fine in RAID 1 and RAID 0 configurations, but in RAID 5 where the raid card should handle errors, that's where you'll have problems with TLER. In RAID 0 and 1, the drives still act and are treated as individual drives, but when it comes to RAID 5, a totally different thing occurs. The thing is, neither have any kind of complicated parity built into it. RAID 1 is 1:1, it's just "write the same stuff to both drives".

There's a lot of misinformation in this thread. I'll stick around to clear it up. BTW, WD may be making the best possible choice right now. It seems to be a trend all around the world at the moment, just look at AT&T as a huge example with their 2GB plan atm... a lot of companies are finding that it's easier to scale things back and not provide as much service than it is to continue expanding. Perhaps companies are reaching terminal velocity?

Are you speaking from experience or are you just making this stuff up as your go along? The only misinformation in this thread is your postings.
thideras knows what he is talking about. I would listen to every word he has to say about this issue!
 
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