Hi everyone, I'm totally new to this Forum got a Question

[FinalBoss]

First off, I'll probably become a regular since I'm giving my old computer 1 last update.

Now for what I'm working with right now.

ASUS M4A77T/USB3 AM3 AMD 770 USB 3.0 ATX (PS This motherboard doesn't allow me to control fans except for the cpu, in other words I have to buy fans that have manual controls on them to adjust)
Phenom II Deneb 945 3.0 ghz NON BLACK EDITION 95watt
G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
EVGA GeForce GTX 460 (Fermi)
CM scout case, with extra 2 120 MM fans for the window.

Also I have a g700 mouse, and I've ordered a g19 keyboard for 160 dollars from amazon free shipping.

NOW I've tried overclocking this cpu, I imagine a mix of not being a black edition with unlocked multiplier, probably not the best motherboard, and not having a cpu cooler besides stock (I used artic silver at least!).

I can only get it overclocked to 3.2 ghz stable.

SO I would like to get a new cpu, and the cooler master hyper evo 212+ for 35 dollars. I know I don't need 6 cores, 4 is fine for me. As it is I'm a pretty technically person, I've used computers building my own for 11 years now. I've never been that knowledgeable of overclocking though.

Now I WILL BE DOING my own research as much as possible, but I don't think there is much room left for my cpu, at least even if I was to buy a cooler for it I don't think that's the only problem with this cpu. Even with a 3.2 overclock under load since the scout has pretty good cooling I'm not going over 55 temps, but the computer just blue screens whenever I try to go any higher.

SO if I was to buy a new cpu, my choices would be while keeping the motherboard I have would be either the 960t, and overclock it with a 212 and 1 fan (i don't think I can use 2 fans on it considering my motherboard only has 1 spot for temp control). OR since my motherboard is kinda cheap maybe I should just give up trying to overclock and just get the 980 BE and not even bother overclocking.

I realize some benefits to not overclocking is that I can still use my EPU-4 engine and can save some money on watts.... not that it really matters to me though. Since when I do overclock epu-4 gets shut down. Honestly though that's not that important.

So what do you guys think? Honestly I know I would enjoy overclocking so that's why I have interest in getting a zosmo and going through the learning process.

BUT this is a big question that I can't seem to find the answer for.

If you have a 960t vs a 980BE and everything else on the computer is the same, using the same exact 212 (or whatever cooler, as long as it's the same) what has better temps at 3.8 ghz? I heard the 980's do run hot since it's all deneb and it's just like having an overclocked 945 really. So yeah. thank you!

 

[RGone]

With that mobo (ASUS M4A77T/USB3 AM3 AMD 770 USB 3.0) why don't you get a 960T that is sold as 4 core @3.0Ghz but has the Thuban IMC inside it and overlock it to 3800Mhz or so? 212 EVO would make a good match for it and checking supported cpus at Asus site they say the board 'even' will support a couple of 140watt processors. Of course they were older ones, but the point is it will or says it will support 125watt processor.

And you might get lucky and get a 960T processor that unlocks to 5 or 6 core for the same 4 cores money. No assurrance but maybe you are lucky. Then with that aftermaket cooler, you ought to be getting it done.

 

[FinalBoss]

Thank you for replying! I should note that I really just don't need more than 4 cores. Computer games are the most stressful thing for my system and since most games are barely even 4 core now, I just don't see 6 core being needed in the next 2 years (in which case I'll be ready for a whole new rig).

So far these are my pro's and cons (note I live in alaska)
PROS
960t, $115 dollars off amazon, free shipping with prime membership trial. It could become 5 or 6 core but I rather have a faster overclock on 4 core. But the fact that it could do a 5 or 6 I believe is a decent future proof! (but again I can't stress how I wouldn't choose this cpu solely on that fact). Very good chance that I can get it to 3.8 ghz with no sweat.

980 BE, 3.8 ghz and I probably wouldn't need to overclock. But I'm getting a hyper evo 212+ so who we kidding .

CONS
960t, without an overclock I'd be at 3.0 ghz which is what I have right now. I would lose some features like EPU-4 with overclock. This isn't really a con though since I'd be getting this cpu FOR OVERCLOCKING in mind. A little concern what the temps this has at 3.8 ghz compared to the 980BE

980BE, $180 dollars with shipping to alaska :***(. I heard these are nothing more than an overclock 955 BE so they already run hot and people pretty much get any deneb's up to 4-4.2 ghz before running into stability problems.

Also I should note my 3 favorite games right now is starcraft 2, BF3 and skyrim. I also am pretty avid in keeping up with the newest games simple because I love seeing new graphics. I been playing games for so long that they are all boring to me, all I enjoy are pretty graphics and nice sounds with my 5.1 sound system .

 

[trents]

I don't see the 960t zosma on Asus' web site CPU support list.

http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/AMD_AM3/M4A77TUSB3/#CPUS

 

[FinalBoss]

You know that's very interesting trent! I believe I may have my choice then .

BUT do you think since my board is old they may have not updated the 960t to being supported? in other words I should check out if there is a bios that would give me support?

I know when my motherboard was out there was no such thing as a 960t. But it does support it's big brother the 1090t (what is there chip names again... thuma? lol)

I will do some more research and see if I can find that answer. Thanks for noticing that though!

UPDATE

Very interesting, I checked the same exact motherboard minus the USB3 feature; and it DOES support the 960t. Do you think that's just an error with asus? seeing how everything else matches up and the same board without usb3 is just older.

http://support.asus.com/Cpusupport/List.aspx?SLanguage=en&m=M4A77T&p=1&s=24

 

[trents]

It is possible if its been awhile since Asus updated that CPU support list but I wouldn't count on that CPU running on that board unless you can get a definitive answer. Assumptions can be costly. On the other hand. The 960t is just crippled Thuban and all the Thubans seem to be represented in that list.

 

[FinalBoss]

I agree, it also seems strange that the same exact board, minus the usb3 does show it as supported (i made a link just so someone can confirm in case I made a mistake)

Also I notice I have duel core optimizer installed. Is that needed for quad core? Also based on suggestions from this site I have downloaded prime95, coretemps, and cpu-z; and I just updated my bios to the newest version using ez flash 2! I did the update so I'll be ready for whatever processor I put in (going to do some more research on 960t working on my motherboard) and it came with a stability update!!!

I think the updates working cause guess what... I broke 3.2 ghz!!!!!!! i'm at 3.3 ghz and 33 F idle, going to play some sc2 and see what it pops up to!! ahhh so excited. I also have 2200 fsb, 1430 ram (was 1600, but i can't get that with the overclock, next step up was 1700) and 2200 NB. Does this sound fine?

 

[trents]

Why don't you attach some pics of CPU-z tabs: "CPU", "Memory" and "SPD"? That will give us lots of info about your system and bios settings.

 

[FinalBoss]

Your wish is my command oh great trent.

 

[Whitefang]

I have a 955 BE running at 3.8GHz right now, on a Hyper 212+. I can easily get it stable to 4 GHz, but my 212+ simply doesn't have the cooling capacity to handle the heat output from IBT. I could run it 4 GHz for day to day use, but I don't want to take the chance.

I would personally buy a lower model (955, 965 maybe) and clock it up to the speed of a 980. Make sure you have good cooling, though!

 

[FinalBoss]

Well I'm either going 960t or 980be, and i'm only going with the 980BE if it will in the end be faster and more stable. But so far I hear the 960t will have the same temps at the same clock speed so :X.

Also i find it weird that in sc2, i have fps being recorded in evga precision (and sc2 has an fps clock of it's own when you hold the mouse over menu) and even though NEITHER of my cpu or gpu are even close to maxing out and i'm not getting 60 fps in huge battles. I was the graphs with alt-tab-ctrl and my 2 cores (sc2 is a 2 core game) will usually sit at 30% and 70%.

although, this is over b.net and I have "heard" that your fps get's reduced since the game syncs in with the slowest computer out of everyone playing. Considering this is the only game I have that either my cpu or gpu isn't maxed out and I'm getting less than 60 fps.

Also Whitefang, when you overclock to 3.8ghz are you getting the same temps as say a 980 BE oc'd to 3.8 ghz with the same hyper 212? in other words, they are all deneb same core, only difference is what multiplier they are set to when you buy them. In which case I could save some cash and just get the 975 since it is 10 dollars cheaper then a 980 (and is 3.6 ghz)

 

[trents]

There is only One who is great and Him I am not!

Concerning the info from your CPU pics I see some things that cause me concern from a stability standpoint that might be throwing up a road block for you.

First, I would lower your HT Link multiplier so that it doesn't exceed the stock 2000 mhz. The NB can handle some overclocking but the HT Link doesn't like it and there is no performance advantage in trying to do so.

Second, I would relax your memory timings to that which corresponds to those in the XMP profile column of the CPU-z SPD tab. I think your timings have gotten too aggressive for the frequency you are trying to run it at. Particularly, the CR needs to be relaxed from 1T to 2T. I would also bump the CPUNB voltage to 1.25 and the ram voltage to 1.55. Slight increases in those to items often help stabilize an overclocked system.

Third, I would increase your CPU voltage. 1.352 is not going to give you much of an overclock. Of course, you can only do this if you have sufficient cooling. This may need to wait for the new cooler. Are you using the stock OEM CPU cooler now?

Have you run any Prime95 blend stress tests with HWMonitor open on the desktop to check core temps under load?

 

[Whitefang]

Also Whitefang, when you overclock to 3.8ghz are you getting the same temps as say a 980 BE oc'd to 3.8 ghz with the same hyper 212? in other words, they are all deneb same core, only difference is what multiplier they are set to when you buy them. In which case I could save some cash and just get the 975 since it is 10 dollars cheaper then a 980 (and is 3.6 ghz)

I have no idea the temperatures on a 980 BE oc'd to 3.8, but I can tell you I never break 55C in IBT unless my computer has been online for 4-5 days at a time before running it, and then it never goes past 60C.

 

[FinalBoss]

Stress test with what I have now (before i make the changes Trent recommends) max temp is 59 degrees on stress test for 1 hour.

Yes I'm using a stock cooler too, When I buy a new cpu I will get the hyper 212 evo, I really think I need a BE to get the most out of overclocking.

ALSO THANK YOU ABOUT THE HT, honestly I had the HT and the NB backwards, I thought it was the other way around.

Now time to reduce my HT, and set my ram timings correctly. BTW i've actually never messed with my ram timings, I believe that's how It came stock? But of course i'm taking your word and I'm making the change!

Ok I just realized I have CnQ on, and other stuff that might be messing it up. Because I tried going up to 1.4 voltage and now I notice cpu-z actually bounces around. So what else should I have turned off?

Oh and prime95 stress test on stock setting get's my temps up to 59 degrees. So there is NO WAY a stock heatsink with my setup and this cpu is able to overclock lol
UPDATE

I think it's pretty obvious I need to do some serious reading cause at 3.4 ghz stress testing was just blue screening me to death. So far I'm back to stock, with 1600 ram and T2 timing.

I notice my voltage jumps around in cpu-z, So I think that may be causing it? I realize my computer lowers it when it's not using as much processor speed. As it is my cores go from 800 mhz to the full 3000ghz, and I'm pretty sure that means I have a setting on like EPU that I shouldn't. I will come back tomorrow with more knowledge I have now! and will be ready to try this again

 

[trents]

Disable Cool N Quiet, C1E and Turbo Boost if your CPU uses that technology. Also, go into Windows Control Panel and set the Power Options to High Performance. These measures should disable all the "green" stuff that messes up overclocking.

Yeah, 59 C. exceeds the oft quoted max core temp stability threshold of 55 C.

 

[FinalBoss]

I was on balanced in the control settings... lol, I will say maybe my cpu is a cherry cause it definitly seems to be fine hanging out at 59 tops; but once it hits 61 degrees seems to be the blue screen.

Anyhow I'm just going to get the most out of my ram for now, I've been reading that 1600 mhz isn't needed since our cpu's can only use 1333? So I have my timings set to 9-9-9-25-34 based on the spd in cpu-z. I will note that g-skill recommends for my ram a 9-9-9-24-34 timing though. I've been using 1600 mhz for I dunno 6 months now? should I try going to 1333 and getting a better timing?

Also I'm definitely getting the hyper 212+ evo, now I just have to choose from a 975 BE or 960T. I want to make my purchase by Sunday night so i can get the shipment in during business week.

 

[trents]

What are you measuring temps with? There's a difference between "CPU" temps (which is really the CPU socket temp measured from the motherboard) and "core" temps. Most software that ships with motherboards only measures the CPU temp whereas third party programs like HWMonitor will give you the core temp which is more critical and the one I was referencing when quoting the 55 C. stability threshold temp.

 

[FinalBoss]

I'm using core temps . after playing bf3 I hit 55 degrees max on back to karkland (BTW that map destroys my computer for some reason, I get 60 fps everywhere except my vram is maxed out the entire time, so if i do look at a whole new scene I get a 2 second stutter)

Honestly though I won't worry about overclocking this cpu much, like i said it's a 95w 945 deneb non BE.

BTW I will be needing your guys help when I get my new cpu and enjoy pushing it with a hyper evo 212+. anyone who has this cooler, do you know how putting on a 2nd fan works for it? as in do the 2 fans combine and go into the one spot on my motherboard for cpu temp control?

 

[RGone]

BTW I will be needing your guys help when I get my new cpu and enjoy pushing it with a hyper evo 212+. anyone who has this cooler, do you know how putting on a 2nd fan works for it? as in do the 2 fans combine and go into the one spot on my motherboard for cpu temp control?

Oh before I forget after cutting your CoreTemp use out of the quote above, CoreTemp does in fact measure the CPU CORE TEMP we talk about; but HWMonitor has a number of voltages and such that we seldom mention UNLESS they are way off but we get to see a more "full meal deal" with HWMonitor doing the logging in background when stressing your setup. Just so you know afore'n you come back with new bad to duh boner cpu and cooler thang.

Okay about the push pull on the EVO 212. I thought surely some of these EE and IT trained inviduals would have already hit into this thread here but not so to date


PWM 4 pin Y cable please.

I will say this since I have spent about 3 hours chasing the 4 pin PWM fan/s in tandem from one motherboard header and the arguements are as bad as Intel Vs AMD fanboy stuff. Reams of talk and very little stuff about what will "workie". One thing I am pretty sure about is that the two fans need to be "identical", so that the PWM circuits inside the fans are alike. There is a PWM standard just like there is a Jedec, SCSI, PCIe and so forth but it appears the fan makers are cutting corners like mad and the inside circuit standard is out the door.

Arctic Cooling 120mm PWM Fan (PWM Sharing Technology)
So a two-way PWM splitter is fine for two cooler fans if they do not exceed the current rating of the motherboard header. (Be sure only one fan returns an RPM signal.)


The Artic PWM fans have circuits to replicate the PWM signal in a daisy chain. This I have found seems to be important. Crap this copied link shows to be no good. Let me look for a good up to date one. OKAY up to date so now you can use the LINK above that leads to >> ARCTIC F PWM
PWM Case Fan with Standard Case model F12 is 74 CFM 120x120 size. Click the "Technical Data" button.

So there you are. I am pretty sure that if " I " was going to wrestle with dual PWM fans I would likely get two alike Arctic Cooling fans and then buy that splitter we talked about in that other thread that did not have one of the returns cut and try it...knowing then I could cut the second return if I had to.

Update: Now I am chasing the push-pull theory and seeing many saying it will not be a good idea on some coolers. A better fan yes for some cooler desgns, but not necessarily better in push-pull mode. The bickering goes on. Hehehe.

RGone...ster.

 

[trents]

I have found push pull to only make about 1 C. difference. I put two 120x35 mm Silverstone fans in a push pull setup on a TRUE cooler and that's all the improvement I got over just one of them in a push only setup. It will probably vary a lot depending on the power of the fans and the spacing of the cooler fins. Adding the pull fan might make more difference where the push fan has a low static pressure and benefits more from the assist of the pull fan. A 35 mm thick fan provides more static pressure than the normal 25 mm thick fan, all other things being equal.