Barton or Thoroughbred?

[shiyan]

Nooooo.... Wait... fix the RAM at 133Mhz, and see how good the Thoroughbred is!

for all we know, maybe the Tbred is good for 2300Mhz! (in which case there's no need for a CPU upgrade)

we simply don't know, as qbas has been running the RAM and CPU synchronized, which leads to his overclock being limited by the RAM.

 

[qbas]

hmmm... I need to look at this problem more closely.

have you tried overclocking the Tbred using higher multipliers? I see that the highest multiplier should be 15. 15x133 is 2Ghz, which is higher than what you have it running at the moment.

generally, if you increase your CPU speed by say 10%, your system speed might increase around 6~8%. If you improve RAM speed by 10%, your system speed will increase just 2~4%.

Is it possible to run the RAM at slower speeds than the FSB with your motherboard?

indeed if it is not possible, then you'll have to run the Barton at something like 15x150=2250Mhz.

edit:

I just saw that you can set your RAM speed to 133.

Set your RAM to 133Mhz, and see how far the Thoroughbred will go.

Yeah if i remember my bios correctly the maximum multiplier is 15 and i have set my memory to run at 266mhz (probably the 133...266/2). i'm thinking that this memory that i have now is really low quality and it is by this that i cannot go over the 150FSB (my computer allways locks up). So i should get better ram, HyperX if possible. Then i should get Barton CPU (thanks to cmdrjay4 ).

When i have my new memory i should try and increase my current CPU and if i can go over 150FSB then everything is ok but on the other hand my current CPU Tbred is also running at 133 (or 266 like my current memory). Maybe my CPU doesn't like higher FSBs, dunno.

 

[shiyan]

I think if you set your RAM to be fixed at 133Mhz, then your overclock is definitely not RAM related.

It could be that the CPU does not want to run at more than 1780Mhz (possible), or it could be that the chipset does not want to run at more than 150Mhz (unlikely), or it could be that the power supply is not strong enough (possible).

But your overclock is not limited by your RAM!

it is after all fixed at 133Mhz, which means that whatever you raise your FSB to, 150, 160, 170.... your RAM stays at 133Mhz.

 

[cmdrjay4]

hmmm... I need to look at this problem more closely.

have you tried overclocking the Tbred using higher multipliers? I see that the highest multiplier should be 15. 15x133 is 2Ghz, which is higher than what you have it running at the moment.

generally, if you increase your CPU speed by say 10%, your system speed might increase around 6~8%. If you improve RAM speed by 10%, your system speed will increase just 2~4%.

Is it possible to run the RAM at slower speeds than the FSB with your motherboard?

indeed if it is not possible, then you'll have to run the Barton at something like 15x150=2250Mhz.

edit:

I just saw that you can set your RAM speed to 133.

qbas: Set your RAM to 133Mhz, and see how far the Thoroughbred will go.



It seems that he can run the RAM fixed at 133Mhz. This means that he should be able to increase the CPU FSB as much as he wants. So, if he got a Barton, he just needs to leave the RAM running at 133Mhz, and run the Barton at whatever FSB he wants.

no as far as i know you can not lock anything with this board
and you can only run the ram and fsb the same

so with ram that only goes to 150(or 149) thats all the fsb you can get

and i do not think you can get 15 on the multi

he did say when he went to 13 it lowerd the fsb(default to somthing lower)

i'm not sure how that works on his board

as far as i can see with this his board goes to 12, if it goes to 15 then yes, he can run 2235 (15*149) and not buy ram

 

[qbas]

Hmm if i have my SDRAM frequancy set to 266mhz shouldn't that be set to the 133Mhz then? (266/2). If so this really bugs me that i cannot go over 150FSB...something is interfering with it.

 

[shiyan]

If you set your RAM frequency at 266Mhz (DDR), it is 133Mhz.

let me go find some specifications of this board....

weren't all KT400 motherboards available with memory frequency locking?

 

[qbas]

no as far as i know you can not lock anything with this board
and you can only run the ram and fsb the same

so with ram that only goes to 150(or 149) thats all the fsb you can get

and i do not think you can get 15 on the multi

he did say when he went to 13 it lowerd the fsb(default to somthing lower)

i'm not sure how that works on his board

as far as i can see with this his board goes to 12, if it goes to 15 then yes, he can run 2235 (15*149) and not buy ram

Maybe i could try that but i have gotten some weird problems when my computer locks down and i clear CMOS it doesn't start then, my board said last time that my memory was damaged or not installed propely, but then i took them off and put back there, it worked again...it is weird.

My PSU is 400W so that shouldn't be the problem with holding me back for my OCing. If my board doesn't allow memory and CPU going differently then it seems i have to get better memory and the Barton so they would synch.

Edit: Gotta go sleep now, damn when i got to roll now, but getting tired and it isn't wise to mess with my computer when your tired...please keep advicing me, i'll check the board again tomorrow and probably try the 15x149 (or lower first).

 

[shiyan]

Maybe we should post the question of whether your motherboard can lock down the RAM frequency to 133Mhz in the motherboard section...

I'm sure someone there can know for sure...

that seems to be the sticking point for choosing RAM or CPU...

can you tell us what you have set exactly in the "advanced chipset features" part of the bios?

interesting... the two reviews I've read both could not get more than 150FSB. weird.

I quote from this page from Hot Hardware

"The Frequency was adjustable from 266, 333, and 400MHz. DDR," in the second paragraph.

can't find any confirmations that that means LOCKING it at 266 is possible...

I posted a thread here in the memory section asking about this.

post your comments as well if you like.

found a picture for your bios:

 

[cmdrjay4]

as far as i know the only(amd) board that has a lock is the nforce2

unless i am out of the loop already!

 

[shiyan]

you could very well be right as I have not been able to find any confirmation for it being able to lock the RAM speed.

but that's not really essential. as long as his motherboard can run the RAM slower than the CPU, that's also okay.

but if his motherboard only allows 1:1 CPU:RAM, then there could be problems.

but that just seems so unlikely... all the AMD boards I used had an option to run the RAM slower than the CPU.

 

[Foxie3a]

upgrade that RAM, and go with the Barton 2500+

It has a larger cache - which is the biggest difference besides the mhz

 

[shiyan]

qbas might be on a limited budget though...

 

[qbas]

qbas might be on a limited budget though...

Well i could get firstly the memory and later get the Barton though, that would be probably the best thing to do...hmm, well i can run the memory at 266Mhz (and if it wouldn't go over 150FSB why would my Mobo support 333FSB or Barton 2500+ or 3000+ for that matter?) Something tells me that my memory is the real reason why i can't go over 150FSB with my rig, If i would get HyperX PC3200 for instance it would probably let me go over 150FSB.

Edit: I found this from my motherboard's FAQ:

Question: Why KT4 Ultra (MS-6590) cannot detect my AMD XP 3000+ (FSB 333) CPU properly?

Answer: FSB clock by default is 100, make sure that BIOS setup-->Frequency/Voltage Control-->CPU FSB clock set as 166

So it seems that it can go over 150FSB and in my case memory is the issue that i can't OC very well (because everytime my computer locks my board tells me that my memory is damaged or not installed propely)

 

[shiyan]

well, if your budget allows for both a 2500+ and the RAM, then what you propose is a good upgrade route to take.

 

[qbas]

Interesting thing i discovered regarding my PSU:

http://www.msi.com.tw/program/e_service/forum/thread.php?threadid=28323&sid=

As you can see these Q-Tec PSU's aren't those what they are saying as my 400W is Q-Tec make so it seems it really isn't a 400W and it may not give the required amount of power to get over 150FSB...That may be my bottleneck, read it and tell me what you think.

 

[shiyan]

well, according to those people your power supply is no better than a regular 300w power supply, as the power rating of 400w is the peak power rating....

that's not good.

even if your power supply is not holding you back with your present setup, I think it would once you get a faster system, so it's probably worth getting a new power supply.

as for suggestions for a power supply, Fortron power supplies are great for the price. Antecs cost more and are also very good.

Hopefully some experienced members give their views as well.

But could you tell me what your voltages look like?

What I am interested in are the voltages of the CPU (vcore), RAM (Vdimm), +12v, +5v. If you can also take a look at the other voltages, +3.3v, -12v, -5v. These are slightly less important.

What you are looking for is what happens when you load the CPU heavily. Record your voltages when you are just sitting in Windows not doing anything, and then load up something like Prime 95, or CPU Burn. See if any of those voltages drop by a large amount. CPU voltage will probably drop a little, but that's normal.

 

[qbas]

Well i have these settings:

Vcore: 1.63v
3.3V: 3.23v
+5V: 4.97v
+12: 11.76v

CPU temperature is at 44C (but at BIOS showed 39c)
System is at 39C

I'll go to BIOS and get more detailed information from my voltages...brb.

 

[shiyan]

what is quite important is what happens when you put the system under load.

that's why you have to be in Windows.

use Hardware Doctor (which should be on the MSI CD), or Motherboard Monitor 5 (which you can download) to observe your voltages when you have 100% CPU load.

if the voltages you gave are for when you are not doing anything, then they are on the low side.

 

[qbas]

Here are the Voltages how BIOS sees them:

Vcore = 1.632v
+5.0v = 5.085v
+12.0v = 11.923v
- 12.0v = - 12.153v
- 5.0v = - 5.578v
Battery = 3.360v
+5v SB = 4.969v

Didn't show my DRAM voltage and it is set on AUTO, so i don't know what voltage it is using...But doesn't these numbers show they are pretty high?

 

[qbas]

what is quite important is what happens when you put the system under load.

that's why you have to be in Windows.

use Hardware Doctor (which should be on the MSI CD), or Motherboard Monitor 5 (which you can download) to observe your voltages when you have 100% CPU load.

if the voltages you gave are for when you are not doing anything, then they are on the low side.

The Vcore i set it to 1.625 manualy from BIOS and i'm using MSI's Core Center to see my voltages and temperatures.

What would be a good stress benchmark where it would load 100% CPU and seeing my Core Center at the same time if the voltages change?