Build Log: Caselabs TH10 Dual 480 Loop

[Zoinks]

After doing a little refreshing (good suggestion that) the only change I am inclined to make is to go with a 480 + 360 rad for the GPU loop. A lot of you folks are trying to build uber quiet systems. While I would like to minimize noise, silence is not a design priority for me. When I got into water cooling my main interest was to improve cooling efficiency relative to what I was getting with the best air cooling solutions I could find so I could get higher overclocks. Quieting my machine down was secondary. The 2000 RPM Cooler Master Sickleflow 70CFM fans I am currently using fine as far as I am concerned.

Part of the problem for me is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of test data for 480mm radiators. In fact, I could not find any. Looking at some 360mm rad tests seems to suggest that three GTX 780s would require about 3 x 360mm rads. I'm not prepared go that far. But I will add a 360 to 480 already in my GPU loop and I'll take my chances. If it isn't enough then I will have to change it out. But I think it will be fine.

Looking at the pumps...here is where I am at so far. From a cost standpoint if I went with two pumps per loop or one pump per loop it wouldn't matter. If I used two pumps per loop I would buy two pumps and reuse the two pumps that are in my system right now. If I only went with one pump per loop I would buy two new pumps because the pumps in my system have been running almost continuously for two years. The only thing that I have seen about running two pumps in serial that might be a concern is that it has been said that the pumps work harder, but I have not seen any data that suggests running, say, a pair of D5 pumps together makes them more susceptible to premature failure. I like the idea of pump redundancy in a water cooling loop. There are times when I have to leave my machine running and might be out of my home office for several hours. While the risk of a failure might be relatively low that would be the worst possible time for a pump to die.

I am pretty close to having everything set. I'll sit on it for a few days and revisit the pump decision to see if I am having any second thoughts.

 

[JeremyCT]

Software safeguards can be put in place to mitigate the danger of pump failure. Temperature or pump rpm limits that trigger an automatic shutdown aren't terribly difficult to set up. 4 pumps and two separate loops is kind of overkill, but in a delightful sort of way.

I wouldn't worry terribly much about the raddage on those GK110s. When you see radiator testing, they're usually targeting a dT of 10 deg C or less. For a GPU only loop like you have, a dT of 15 deg C is perfectly acceptable.

What sort of dT did you get with the triple GF110 cards? Or did you not measure it? The GTX780 TDP really isn't that much higher than the TDP of the GTX570 cards you had in there previously. If you were happy with the temps previously, you'll be happy again I think.

 

[Zoinks]

Software safeguards can be put in place to mitigate the danger of pump failure. Temperature or pump rpm limits that trigger an automatic shutdown aren't terribly difficult to set up. 4 pumps and two separate loops is kind of overkill, but in a delightful sort of way.

Thank you. Using software controls is an excellent suggestion that hadn't occurred to me. I'll look into that. I agree that two pumps per loop is overkill, but I was considering it more for redundancy and peace of mind than I was for performance.

I wouldn't worry terribly much about the raddage on those GK110s. When you see radiator testing, they're usually targeting a dT of 10 deg C or less. For a GPU only loop like you have, a dT of 15 deg C is perfectly acceptable.

What sort of dT did you get with the triple GF110 cards? Or did you not measure it? The GTX780 TDP really isn't that much higher than the TDP of the GTX570 cards you had in there previously. If you were happy with the temps previously, you'll be happy again I think.

This was the mental calculus that I went through at the start. My temps never get above 56C under a sustained full load with my triple GTX 570 on a single 480 rad set up, and I am more than satisfied with that. The same cards would get above 85C using the reference air cooler, and those fans sounded like an F-14 Tomcat taking off from an aircraft carrier. Compared to that my rig is plenty quiet enough. I don't need it to be completely silent.

TDP for the GTX 570 is 219 watts. For the GTX 780 it is 250. So at stock clocks and voltages we are only talking about an additional 93 watts for three cards. Since I will be overclocking the 780s it will be a bit more than that so I don't think adding a 360 rad to the GPU loop is going too far. It only adds about $70 to the cost and will give me a bit more cooling headroom so I see some value in it.

I think things are coming together rather nicely. This isn't my first barbecue so I do have some idea of what I need to do (though suggestions are always welcome). My current water cooling rig exceeded my expectations by a country mile. I was able to hit a stable 5GHz on my Sandy Bridge 2600K rather easily, and while a lot of other people were doing the same thing when I built my rig I thought it was the cat's *** to have an Intel CPU running at 5GHz. I don't have the same expectations for Ivy Bridge-E, so getting it up to between 4.5 and 4.8GHz will be fine, though I will run it at a more modest overclock for everyday computing.

 

[JeremyCT]

Another option that you might give some thought to is running one large loop instead of two separate ones. If appears your case could support 3x 480 rads. With that much radiator area, the temps in a combined loop would be totally satisfactory IMHO. If it were me, I'd probably run two MCP35x pumps using one of the "dual pump" tops, plumb it as a single large loop, and add one or two water temp fittings along with a nice automated fan controller like the Aquaero 6 XT to automatically regulate the fan speeds on a water-air dT curve (the controller includes a few ambient temp probes).

That would get you the redundancy you're looking for, control noise to some extent, and be a bit less complex overall. I know you said noise isn't a primary factor for your design choices, but I can't imagine making a system louder than it needs to be for no performance gain.

That's just my 2 cents though.

 

[GTXJackBauer]

Another option that you might give some thought to is running one large loop instead of two separate ones. If appears your case could support 3x 480 rads. With that much radiator area, the temps in a combined loop would be totally satisfactory IMHO. If it were me, I'd probably run two MCP35x pumps using one of the "dual pump" tops, plumb it as a single large loop, and add one or two water temp fittings along with a nice automated fan controller like the Aquaero 6 XT to automatically regulate the fan speeds on a water-air dT curve (the controller includes a few ambient temp probes).

That would get you the redundancy you're looking for, control noise to some extent, and be a bit less complex overall. I know you said noise isn't a primary factor for your design choices, but I can't imagine making a system louder than it needs to be for no performance gain.

That's just my 2 cents though.

I agree and my points before pointed to what you said Jeremy. Keep it as one big loop as technology has changed since the past where people would do 2 loops. The newer pumps can handle a big loop, especially the MCP-35X2. The performance gain wouldn't be much different in doing 2 separate loop as all you're doing is adding more costs. Enough heat surface with 2 pumps with the added redundancy is all you need in a nice big case like the Caselabs TH10 you have there OP.

2 480s with 2 pumps is enough to cool those 3 GPUs and CPU. Just make sure you match up the right FPI count with the right fans whether you go push or pull or both and have a drain setup.

 

[Zoinks]

Right now I'm having a problem with a NewEgg order I just received today so thinking about the water cooling stuff is going to take a back seat. I haven't let what you guys said sink in, but it really strikes me as just another way of skinning the same cat. That's not to say there is no merit to the points you are making. There are many ways to get this done with all of them producing more or less the same result. I think my original vision with two loops (a setup I have already implemented once with great success) also has merit and I am not persuaded that what you're suggesting is qualitatively superior to what I had in mind. I'll revisit your comments later after I have dealt with the hardware problem. Better to kick that around when I am in a better frame of mind.

At the moment I am dealing with a problem that is more immediate in nature. I received an order from NewEgg a few minutes ago for a EVGA GTX 780 Classified Hydro Copper and an Intel Ivy Bridge-E i7 4930K CPU. The processor was fine but the video card came in some open box packaging that I have never seen from EVGA. All it had inside was a bare video card in an unsealed bag, with no fittings, and no nothing else.

On the left is one of the cards I bought direct from EVGA, and on the right is what I received from NewEgg. I have no idea where that card came from but it most certainly is not retail packaging. To say I am plenty pissed is an understatement. So what NewEgg sent me is going back and I will need to buy another card elsewhere.

 

[SeeThruHead]

I would think 2 pumps in one loop is your best bet here. 4 pumps is silly and you are wasting money. 2 pumps will provide redundancy and enough pumping power for any tri sli loop.

 

[GTXJackBauer]

Right now I'm having a problem with a NewEgg order I just received today so thinking about the water cooling stuff is going to take a back seat. I haven't let what you guys said sink in, but it really strikes me as just another way of skinning the same cat. That's not to say there is no merit to the points you are making. There are many ways to get this done with all of them producing more or less the same result. I think my original vision with two loops (a setup I have already implemented once with great success) also has merit and I am not persuaded that what you're suggesting is qualitatively superior to what I had in mind. I'll revisit your comments later after I have dealt with the hardware problem. Better to kick that around when I am in a better frame of mind.

Fair enough.

At the moment I am dealing with a problem that is more immediate in nature. I received an order from NewEgg a few minutes ago for a EVGA GTX 780 Classified Hydro Copper and an Intel Ivy Bridge-E i7 4930K CPU. The processor was fine but the video card came in some open box packaging that I have never seen from EVGA. All it had inside was a bare video card in an unsealed bag, with no fittings, and no nothing else.

On the left is one of the cards I bought direct from EVGA, and on the right is what I received from NewEgg. I have no idea where that card came from but it most certainly is not retail packaging. To say I am plenty pissed is an understatement. So what NewEgg sent me is going back and I will need to buy another card elsewhere.

As for the hardware issues, that really is disappointing. I had the same thing happen to me from newegg months back when I had the GTX 780 Hydro Copper come in. It came with no box wrap which it should, all seals were broken and the sticker on the front of the GPU wasn't there and the back had look like it was placed again. Than the $20 sale router I bought from them came with broken seals too weeks later from the GPU mishap. The customer service took care of both issues no problem and knocked off $10 on the router since I just decided to keep it but am disappointed at newegg for the lack of quality control. It's obvious these were open box/returned items. Shame on their end.

They should and will replace it. Just call them today and get the process going.

 

[Zoinks]

They should and will replace it. Just call them today and get the process going.

Already done. UPS is coming back to pick it up tomorrow. Thanks.

 

[JeremyCT]

The plain brown box is a form of EVGA packaging. My 660ti came in exactly that sort of packaging, direct from EVGA. Now, if yours was opened prior to arriving on your doorstep, that's a problem, but the box itself isn't.

Does the description the card indicate it includes fittings? I prefer stuff that doesn't to be honest. I use 3/8" tubing, so I have a handful of 1/2" barbs that came with various water parts.

 

[Zoinks]

What is pictured on the NewEgg website is the full retail package. So the box itself is a problem because what they sent to me is not what I was led to believe I was buying. Even if the box was sealed I would have returned it unopened. The fact that it was opened renders the rest of it academic.

 

[GTXJackBauer]

Even if the retail box is different he still didn't get what is pictured on the EVGA site, the packages contents etc.

 

[Zoinks]

Ok. Now that I have gotten past my initial disappointment with NewEgg over the video card I ordered, I have returned to the subject of water cooling.

I decided to go with a single loop. The main benefit for me is a better organized layout with less clutter. Cost really wasn't a factor in my decision. I priced it out both ways and the cost with one or two loops was almost the same. With two loops I would have to buy less parts because I could reuse more of what I already have. So a decision either way would not have done anything to save me money. Going with two loops and four pumps made less and less sense the more I thought about it, and doing so would have tacked on another $250 in cost that I really didn't need.

While my case can fit up to six 480mm radiators (it's a TH10 after all ), I am going with three Alphacool NexXxos UT60 480s. It will be two D5 pumps, and they will go into a XSPC Twin D5 dual bay reservoir. However, I will not be mounting the reservoir in a bay. I'll remove the front faceplate and fashion my own mount so I can fit it to the bottom of the motherboard side of my TH10 case. This will make for easier filling, top offs, and draining.

With all of this radage it makes sense to go with quieter fans, though I really had no complaints with the CoolerMaster Sickleflow 120mm 2000 RPM fans I'm using. It came down to either Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1850 or Corsair SP120 Quiet Edition fans. I went with the Gentle Typhoon 1850s though I honestly felt either would have been a good choice.

For tubing it is Primochill Primoflex Advanced LRT 3/8 x 5/8 in Elegant White, which will provide some contrast with the case/MB/Rads and matte black compression fittings I will be using. No dye will go into the loop. It will be distilled water, a few drops of biocide, and a silver kill coil.

A Koolance quick disconnect will be fitted to the lowest point in the loop for easy draining.

Total cost (including the DEMCflex filter set for the Caselabs TH10) is approximately $1,200. No point in suggesting any changes because it's a done deal and an order has already been placed. It's time to move on. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Now I have to wait for all of this stuff to show up.

 

[JeremyCT]

I look forward to seeing/reading about how it all turns out. Still no provisions for measuring water temperature? Do you just not feel the need to know?

I have a nearly insatiable need for data, but I'm a bit strange in that regard, lol.

 

[Zoinks]

Still no provisions for measuring water temperature? Do you just not feel the need to know?

That isn't essential information IMO. All I care about are my CPU and GPU temps, and I already have the means to monitor those.

 

[GTXJackBauer]

Ok. Now that I have gotten past my initial disappointment with NewEgg over the video card I ordered, I have returned to the subject of water cooling.

I decided to go with a single loop. The main benefit for me is a better organized layout with less clutter. Cost really wasn't a factor in my decision. I priced it out both ways and the cost with one or two loops was almost the same. With two loops I would have to buy less parts because I could reuse more of what I already have. So a decision either way would not have done anything to save me money. Going with two loops and four pumps made less and less sense the more I thought about it, and doing so would have tacked on another $250 in cost that I really didn't need.

While my case can fit up to six 480mm radiators (it's a TH10 after all ), I am going with three Alphacool NexXxos UT60 480s. It will be two D5 pumps, and they will go into a XSPC Twin D5 dual bay reservoir. However, I will not be mounting the reservoir in a bay. I'll remove the front faceplate and fashion my own mount so I can fit it to the bottom of the motherboard side of my TH10 case. This will make for easier filling, top offs, and draining.

With all of this radage it makes sense to go with quieter fans, though I really had no complaints with the CoolerMaster Sickleflow 120mm 2000 RPM fans I'm using. It came down to either Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1850 or Corsair SP120 Quiet Edition fans. I went with the Gentle Typhoon 1850s though I honestly felt either would have been a good choice.

For tubing it is Primochill Primoflex Advanced LRT 3/8 x 5/8 in Elegant White, which will provide some contrast with the case/MB/Rads and matte black compression fittings I will be using. No dye will go into the loop. It will be distilled water, a few drops of biocide, and a silver kill coil.

A Koolance quick disconnect will be fitted to the lowest point in the loop for easy draining.

Total cost (including the DEMCflex filter set for the Caselabs TH10) is approximately $1,200. No point in suggesting any changes because it's a done deal and an order has already been placed. It's time to move on. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Now I have to wait for all of this stuff to show up.

Perfect! You got some premium parts there and I think you made the right decisions. Back in the day lots of people did 2 loops for better cooling but since than the products have improved so much that all you need is one simple loop. It will look really nice as I am sure with a case like that and all those components going in, you will aim for a nice clean simple look. I hope you share your experience with us by taking some pics and or making a build log.

 

[Zoinks]

All of the hardware to do the build is here:

Asus Rampage IV Black Edition
Intel Ivy Bridge-E 6 Core CPU
32GB G.Skill DDR3 2133 Memory
Crucial M500 480GB SSD
Western Digital 4TB Black Edition
3 x EVGA GTX 780 Classified Hydro Copper
EVGA 1300 G2 Power Supply (JonnyGuru reviewed with a 9.7 score)

All of the water cooling gear is here too. Sorry, no photo as the stuff has been inventoried but is still in the box it was shipped in.

The only thing I am waiting for is some stuff from Caselabs: a flexbay drive bay with fan mount, a 2.5" SSD mounting tray, and a USB 3.0 front panel I/O kit. That stuff just shipped today so I won't have it until next week. I'll probably start the build the week of December 16th.

 

[Eugenius88]

Can't wait to see this beauty done.

 

[Zoinks]

Well, I got off to a bit of a false start and ended up making a number of changes to the configuration. It all started with the Scythe Gentle Typhoon fans. In short, I didn't much care for them. Frankly, the Cooler Master Sickleflow R4 fans had better air flow and were not that much louder at about 1/3 the price. So I ended up returning the Scythes.

I also had something of a fit challenge with two 480mm radiators on the power supply side of my TH10 case. I could have made it work if I had bought some additional fittings...but it would have been very cramped in the corner due to the rad thickness. So I changed out one 480mm for a 360mm. The final configuration will be two 480mm rads and one 360 in a single loop.

The fans were something of a problem, because I labored mightily over what to get in place of the Scythes. I thought about buying the Corsair Static Pressure Quiet Edition 120mm fans...but had lingering concerns about the low fan speed. So then I started thinking about faster fans with speed control for greater flexibility, and the more I thought about it the more I became convinced that it was the way to go. So I bought 12 Corsair SP120 Performance Edition fans. They are pressure optimized and top out at 2,350 RPM...more than plenty.

At 2,350 RPM the fans will be loud so I will need a controller. At first I started looking only at fan controllers. I didn't really like any of the manual knob controllers. But the Lamptron CW611 was appealing at $99, and with six channels rated at 36w per channel it could support two D5 pumps and 12 fans easily. However, it didn't take long for me to look at the more feature rich thermal management and monitoring solutions as opposed to just fan/pump control. And after several days of research and deliberating I decided to buy an Aquaero 6 Pro. I also changed out my pumps to a pair of PWM controlled Swiftech MCP655s. I bought an inline water temp sensor and a flow rate sensor to go with the Aquaero 6 Pro. I know I said before that water temp and flow isn't information that I feel is important, but since I was going to a complete thermal management solution I felt that I might as well take full advantage of it. I considered getting the Aquaero 6 XT but decided that the remote was something I would seldom if ever use. I can always add it later if I want, but the main attraction for me was the software.

The new stuff will be here in a few days.

 

[JeremyCT]

I think you'll really like that Aquaero. There are a few of us on here with them now, so if you have questions about setting it up, feel free to ask. Switching to controlling fan speeds based of air/water dT was the best change I made in my loop.

120x10 worth of rad. Damn.