Building A64 system - need advice

[Double_D]

Hi everyone. Long time lurker, first time poster. I've read and learned a lot from the wealth of information on this site. For that, I'd like to say 'thanks.'

I'm ready to build me a new PC. I just wanted to get everyone's recommendation and consensus on some components. I presently have a Shuttle AK31 mobo, Athlon XP1700+, an old Geforce2 Ultra, and PC2100 RAM (Crucial and Kingston - 768Mb). I'm long overdue for a new system, and with half - life 2 coming out in less than a month, it's time to build!

Here's what I've currently settled on:

motherboard: DFI "LANPARTY UT nF3 250Gb"
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 3000+, 512KB L2 Cache (Newcastle) - [or would a 2800+ be just as good for ~$20 less?]
Video Card: Geforce 6800GT

That's as far as it goes for now. I originally was going to get an Athlon XP2500+ mobile and A7N8X motherboard, but figured I could afford the extra $100 on the A64

What I'm here to ask about is the rest of the components.

RAM: ??? (1 stick of 1GB or so, I figure, since I'll only have 1 mem controller)
Serial ATA Hard Drives (RAID 0): ???
Power Supply: ???

I want good RAM for sure (for future overclocking). Hard drives, I don't necessarily need the fastest or the best, but a good comprimise between cost, speed, and size (80Gb each should be find I'd say)

My original goal was $1000, but I can go a little more than that (still want to stay as close to that figure as possible, though).

So, what would everyone recommend to finish out my system?

Thanks for your help. Let me know if I need to provide more info...

-DD

 

[PLOBBY]

For the video card i personally would go with an x800 pro for the little extra cash. Supposely it has better performance and there were some glitches with aa or af or something with the 6*00 series. But thats you call.

For the hard drive. How many do you want. How much space do you want?
Off the top of my head i would get a WD raptor 74 gb 10,000 rpm.

As for the CPU i like your choice . Thats what i have right now and i love it. it works very well. I also thing you should spend the extra $20 for the 3000+ instead of the 2800+....I also like the mobo you picked. I think im going to get myself one sometime here soon. because im lacking agp/pci locks and is holding me back.


and then get some sort of storage drive like 200gb either by western digital or hittachi is also very nice IMO.Thats all i can really help you with as for that. I havnt really tried much ram or power supplys and i dont want to lead you the wrong way.

 

[Mdogs444]

For your ram, i would definately go w/ either Crucial Ballistix PC3200 (512x2), OCZ PC3200 Plat Rev 2, or OCZ PC3700 Gold EL.

HD's, you can do anything....just say away from Maxtor. They suck. Go with a nice WD or Seagate Sata drive. Should be able to pull one for 75-100$, or a 74 gig raptor for 150$ after MIR.

PSU is very crucial for OC'ing. Dont buy cheap PSU's. Go either with a Fortron 530, the new Ultra Xconnect 500 (very very cool) - both for around 100$. Or you can do what i did and go with Tt 480w for abou t55$. Not as good as a Forton, but just as stable if you read the reviews. I have no problems with my system running off of it.

 

[Double_D]

Thanks, all. I will look into the memory you suggested. I think I want 1Gb of memory all in one stick as I've read that you get better stability / overclockability with that setup on a single-channel memory controller system like this. So, I doubt I'll go with 2x512, but rather 1 full stick. If I'm wrong here, let me know why. Also, where would be the best place to get this memory?

As far as hard drives, like I said in my first post, about 80Gb each will do. I only need 2 of them. I will definitely run them RAID 0. Should I really shell out the extra money for the raptors, or would I be just as fine going with something a little cheaper?

Once again, thanks. If you could provide some links to some of these recommendations, I'd appreciate that.

-DD

 

[killerkid]

again i will suggest what i suggested to another person. Wait for the NForce4 chipsets.

 

[Double_D]

If I knew when a new NForce4 board, with similar features as the DFI I've chosen, would be out it would make that decision a whole lot easier. As it stands now, with what I've read, I'm not willing to wait another 4-6 months for a NForce4 board.

I have waited until Half-Life 2 was ready before I started to put together a PC. I can't see waiting another few months right now.

By then, it'll be "wait for the new 'whatever' chipset / feature / add-on" and I'll never end up buying anything. LOL.

I've pretty much decided on the cpu / motherboard...I just wanted some opinions and information on the rest of the components.

Are PC3700 or PC4000 memory official designations? If not, why am I seeing it on places like Newegg? Also, what would be a good DVD / CD burner?

Thanks again for everyone's help.

 

[gearfish]

Look at my sig! Runs like a BEAST!

Everything from Newegg.

 

[Double_D]

bump...still looking for a good cd/dvd writer and for answers to memory questions.

Thanks again.

 

[Gabber359]

Well, as for the DVD RW I'd go for:

LiteOn SOHW-1633S Dual Layer 16x DVD±RW ReWriter - Retail

Heard a lot of good things about Lite On, have a DVD and Cd RW drive by them (3.5 yrs), never done me wrong. Plus I'm getting that little baby ^^ for my own system

Raptors are certainly worth it, read the first paragraph ( I know there was a more extensvie article somewhere, just can't find it):
http://www17.tomshardware.com/storage/20040723/raid-scaling-02.html

Remember, at the end of the day your system will be initially retrieving info FROM your HDD, so the more efficiently (and faster!) it goes, the faster your system will run.

Oh and 2x512 DDR in Dual Channel, more mem bandwith. It's like having 1 tap to fill a bath, or two of the same taps filling a bath. It's obvious as to what is going to fill the bath faster.

And what Killer said, wait for the nForce 4 chipsets (1-2months)
Patience is a virtue, believe me.....

 

[El-Scotto]

How are the Dual Layer dvd burners? can you use regular dvd+r\w disc with them or do they use a different kind?

 

[Double_D]

Well, as for the DVD RW I'd go for:

LiteOn SOHW-1633S Dual Layer 16x DVD±RW ReWriter - Retail

Heard a lot of good things about Lite On, have a DVD and Cd RW drive by them (3.5 yrs), never done me wrong. Plus I'm getting that little baby ^^ for my own system

Thanks, I'll look into them.

Raptors are certainly worth it, read the first paragraph ( I know there was a more extensvie article somewhere, just can't find it):
http://www17.tomshardware.com/storage/20040723/raid-scaling-02.html



Remember, at the end of the day your system will be initially retrieving info FROM your HDD, so the more efficiently (and faster!) it goes, the faster your system will run.

Ok. I'll consider them too. Thanks again.

Oh and 2x512 DDR in Dual Channel, more mem bandwith. It's like having 1 tap to fill a bath, or two of the same taps filling a bath. It's obvious as to what is going to fill the bath faster.

That may be true for a dual memory controller chipset, but the socket 754's have only a single memory controller. So, one stick will be better than two for overclocking. I just don't think I can find really good RAM in 1Gb sizes, can I?

And what Killer said, wait for the nForce 4 chipsets (1-2months)
Patience is a virtue, believe me.....

I don't know. I've read up on them and aside from near full hardware implemetation of the firewall and PCI-E, I don't see what there is to wait for. I figure that by the time I want a new graphics card, I'll want a new mobo and processor too, so I'm still unsure on this one. That, plus it will take a little while before they come out and I'm ready to build now (well, at least just before HL2). I'm still not convinced it's worth the wait right now, honestly.

-DD

 

[dark_15]

I like the NEC 3500A... linky: http://www.newegg.com/app/SearchProductResult.asp?Submit=Go&DEPA=0

If you must buy now, I would suggest a nice S939 machine. If you're willing to get a smaller machine, A Shuttle SN95 would be very nice... (ok, I am a SFF fanboy despite what my sig says) http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=56-101-457&depa=0

AS for the processor... get a nice new Winchester
http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=M&Category_Code=NA_2

Look at the top 3... and pay as much as you want...

Get a gig of corsair ram Value select... and you're good to go!

Go X800 for video card... they're worth it...

These are just my $0.02

 

[Double_D]

Alright guys. Back at this. I've got the following figured out:

CPU: Athlon 64 3000+
MoBo: DFI Lanparty NForce3 Ultra 256Gb
Video: Sapphire Radeon X800 XT Platinum Ed.
Power Supply: Undecided
DVD-Burner: Undecided (leaning towards the lite-on suggestion)


I need some help with RAM. Which one is better?:

OCZ Platinum Rev2 3200: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=20-146-890&depa=0

OR

OCZ Gold Rev3 3700: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=20-146-843&depa=0

or am I not looking at the right memory? I plan on buying within the next couple of days, so your help is greatly appreciated.

-DD

 

[bobmanfoo]

heres a cheap a64 3000+ http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=BA20768
im partial to the OCZ psu's =P directron.com has the 420w for $90
as for dvd burner you i recommend the nec-2500a, with a simply firmware upgrade it could be turned into a dual layer burner, it should cost around 60$
why are you getting an Xt PE, i'd just shoot for a reg XT

 

[Double_D]

heres a cheap a64 3000+ http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=BA20768
im partial to the OCZ psu's =P directron.com has the 420w for $90
as for dvd burner you i recommend the nec-2500a, with a simply firmware upgrade it could be turned into a dual layer burner, it should cost around 60$
why are you getting an Xt PE, i'd just shoot for a reg XT

I'm going for the XT PE because it's only $30 more.

And, maybe I need to make myself clear. I have decided on a Socket 754 system (hence the DFI NF3 mobo), so that CPU you listed won't work.

I'll check out that Power Supply though. A little more than I wanted to spend, but I'll look into it. I was thinking around $50 - 60 for PS.

Thanks.

-DD

 

[bobmanfoo]

I'm going for the XT PE because it's only $30 more.

And, maybe I need to make myself clear. I have decided on a Socket 754 system (hence the DFI NF3 mobo), so that CPU you listed won't work.

I'll check out that Power Supply though. A little more than I wanted to spend, but I'll look into it. I was thinking around $50 - 60 for PS.

Thanks.

-DD

oh, i was under the impression that the PE costs alot more. can i ask why you are set on getting a socket 754? less OC potential, no dual channel and slower H/T bus, is it really worth it to base ur rig around a mobo?

 

[Double_D]

Well, from what I understand, the DFI is able to allow an overclock well past 939 levels against current 939 mobo offerings.
From: http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2198&p=12

DFI claims that the LANParty UT nF3 250Gb is the fastest Athlon 64 board that you can buy. This statement is undoubtedly a reflection of the fact that a prototype DFI nF3 250Gb is at the top of the current results for Future Mark 2001SE, besting even Socket 939 solutions in topping those charts...

To put it simply, the DFI nF3 250Gb is the best overclocking Athlon 64 board that we have ever tested...

The only question that remains is where the DFI nF3 250Gb fits for the Athlon 64 buyer. With the premium prices for Socket 939 processors, many smart buyers have been buying the cheaper Socket 754 processors instead. They realize that the 754 is only slightly slower than the 939 dual-channel chips and that the Athlon 64 does not require massive memory bandwidth for best performance. The new DFI LANParty UT makes that 754 an even more attractive choice with a fairly priced board, which can reach overclock levels that no current Socket 939 can even approach. The extra overclocking headroom that you can achieve on the DFI more than makes up for the slight performance advantage of Socket 939 dual-channel processors.

Dual channel memory for the A64's isn't really a benefit like it was with the Barton's. I think I read only 1-3% improvement with a dual channel setup (that's coming from memory, so don't quote me).

The HT bus may indeed be slower (200Mhz I think), but for me I really don't think it will matter.

Ultimately, what it boils down to for me is that I can save a pretty significant amount of money and get a 3rd-iteration chipset with amazing overclockability and outstanding performance right now (vs waiting on NF4 chipset and all it's bugs). In addition, when I started this new PC build I had planned on getting an XP2500 mobile barton and A7N8X board. I'm already shelling out more money for the A64 than I was originally planning on spending on the barton. Plus, I've used any extra money I had to get the ATI card instead of the 6800GT I had originally planned on (based on suggestions from here and reviews around the net).

All-in-all, I think I've made a pretty well-informed decision and I'm confident that it will suit my needs very well. I think the 754 / DFI combo is the sweet spot I am looking for in regard to price / performance.

Now, back to the questions...

-DD

 

[bobmanfoo]

lol, either way, i am not saying there is anything wrong with the 754, good luck with the rig

 

[Sentential]

Alot of people are giving you serious misgiving about S939. If you plan to keep your rig for awhile, S754 is NOT a good choice. Dual-channel IS a big deal and most of the people here are going to give you the totally wrong impression about it.

Unlike Bartons or AXP in general, A64 does have genuine dual-channel support, and it really makes a difference in games.

Here is a bandwith picture of my old AXP system and my new A64. The only thing that has changed is the CPU and mobo. Sisandra gives a rough estimate of the bandwith available on the PC and is quite a useful tool to show performance on varying systems.

<Old System, AXP 2600+ @ 260FSB, effectivly SC>

<New System, A64 S939 3200+ @ 254, true DC>

178% net gain in bandwith by going dual-channel....Is this really something you want to miss out on?

S754 is a dead platform. I highly suggest people who plan to upgrade to A64, to avoid going S754. AMD has no plans to extend S754 beyond 2005. S754 much like SocketA will die off very shortly.

If you have enough for an X800XT, you sure as hell have enough for an S939 system. On average S939 systems are a full 200mhz faster at the same speed, and AMD rates them accordinly.

Plus if you get an S939 you can get the new Winchester core. Winchester is based on 90nm technology. It requires less power, is generally faster, and runs cooler than a Newcastle.

You can make your choice either way, but I feel you are making a mistake by getting a 754. If you do in fact decide to go S939, the best mobo is currentally MSI's K8N Neo2 Platnium. This is the mobo almost all of us are using at the moment.

My final point is that S939 processors are no longer sold at a premium. You can buy a 3000+ from Monarch Computer for $160 and a 3200+ for $196. Im sure that costs almost exactally like your Newcastle

As for the overclocking being poor on S939, you are completely mistaken. On average S939 systems overclock BETTER than 754, because they are the only platforms with 90nm AMD CPUs.

If you buy a 3000+ Newcastle, most likely you will get to about 2.4ghz (if that) before you start to have problems. Winchesters overclock on average to about 2.5, plus they have Dual-channel so that effectivly adds another 200mhz to the effective clock. If you chose to go S754, you will be effectively lagging by almost 300mhz.

 

[Double_D]

178% net gain in bandwith by going dual-channel....Is this really something you want to miss out on?

I thank you kindly for your response and will take your advice to heart and spend some time doing more research. However, your claim that dual channel is 178% net gain is misleading. You were comparing an AXP system to a dual channel A64 system. Hell, I think an AXP to A64 S754 is like 170% improvement in bandwidth.

What you need to compare is an A64 S754 (single channel) vs A64 S939...there the difference is marginal at best (1%-3% I think I read, but don't quote me).

I will, however, look into your suggestion. I just don't see S754 dying off like you claim, and I certainly don't see it as being inferior to S939 by the margin you try and portray.

Thanks, though. I WILL look more into this.

-DD