Clear Tubing going Cloudy.

[bluezero5]

Alright, we all have heard about clear PVC tubing going cloudy, some blame it on the brand, some call it on the additives.

I decided to do a forum COMB of all tubing threads, and must have read 300-400 posts about it.. I collected some data.. and I think I found something.


People Reporting Tubes going cloudy.

32 people used non-distill water
42 people used CuSO4 (mayhem, PT nuke, dead water) + Silver coil
53 people used JUST CuSO4
4 people used JUST Silver kill coil
16 people used coloring.

of brands they complained:

PrimoChill 55 (and shockingly most in 2012)
Masterkleer 3
Tygon 35 (didn't care to divide Tygon groups)
DangerDen 2
Koolance 2
ClearFlex 12
Unspecific/never heard of brand. 112





I think I see a pattern.
I will write a summary about it in a bit.
Just thought I share first.





(take note, some of the 'people' count probably over lapped, I just tick on the paper on their complained, I didn't care to remember them 1 by 1.)

 

[dtrunk]

I tried to dive in to this with Prinmo; they essentially ignored me after the first email that said "sorry, that sucks for u; not OUR problem." the messed up thing is I did all my research (except for clear tubing of course,) I took about 14+ hours to put together my loop trying to be as meticulous as possible, cleaned everything several times and then flushed it with distilled several times, thought I followed all the "DO's & DON'T."

the only thing I can see to be an issue is the water is ozonated; Alhambra distilled water, purified by steam distillation, filtered, and ozonated. any1? I don't see any other reason in my loop/procedure that should/would cause this.

 

[m0r7if3r]

I have to comment here that without knowing how many people use each brand of tubing, it's pretty difficult to draw any sort of definitive conclusions. This would be a good launching point for some sort of deeper investigation. I know that PrimoChill has had some issues recently, but I also wonder if their number is inflated because we recommend them so heavily here, leading to a higher percentage of users using primochill. A way to get a quick glance at the breakdown of who uses what tubing would be to have a mod create a poll (maybe here, maybe in another thread) to see who is using what tubing. Admittedly, this wouldn't be the best solution, as a lot of this board's traffic is help vampires, but it could give an idea at least.

Thanks for putting in the work on this, I'm super interested to see what comes of it.

 

[bluezero5]

Ok. disclaimer first..
as I was searching the forum, and reading down.. most post are made from 2010 and on, some from 2008/9, but as you can see, doesn't date back too much, as such, I suspect many post no longer exists...

now, recently there are some primochill complains.
so naturally, we will see more primochill complain than others, so please take into consideration that the numbers are likely somewhat inflated.. all it can be sure, is that 'recently' there has been more primoichill complains than before. (prior to 2011, almost no complains.)


MY FINDINGS:
_____________

I wish to ignore the brand, and go to the source of the problem.

Here are those than claim their tubings are 'clear' for more than 8 months.
(sorry about the arbitrary 8.. but before 8 months, most posts only report 2-3 months, the shortest dated report is 8 months there after, so that stuck.

These are the people who's LOOP STAYED CLEAR after 8 months.

8 used Distill
1 didn't use Distill (used a blue UV active coolant he didn't specify)

7 people only used Silver
1 person only used PT Nuke
1 other person used both PT nuke and Silver


Combining with the above data..
I feel.. there might be a reaction with recent tubes, with CuSO4 that causes the accelerating clouding process.. Albeit, on the long run, all tubings turns murky, but seems like the concentration of CuSO4.. 'might' be a contributing factor..


I would like to prove this wrong...

anyone that use CLEAR tubing, Using CuSO4 for more than 8 months, and STILL have clear tubing (near day1 quality?) If so, please speak up!! your vouch here will have strong impact on a conclusion being drawn here..

PS... ** my eyes need rest, too much forum read. I reply the rest tomorrow. lol.

 

[m0r7if3r]

That actually makes a lot of sense. As many of you are aware, the originally PT Nuke was replaced (sorta) by PTNuke PHN, which uses Benzalkonium chloride as the main ingredient in place of CuSO₄. The idea behind this was that it didn't alter the PH of the water as much. Mayhem mentions here that he did some testing on the clouding of tubing, and that it seemed that the clouding was due to the PH of the solution running through the tubing, so CuSO₄ is definitely a good suspect.

 

[xander89]

ok guys just wanted to add my input into this. I used the tubing supplied with the xspc kit and after about 3 weeks this is what happened to it...



Keep in mind all i am using is dionised water + mayhem biocide. Also when i drained my loop the water was perfectly clear and my rez was also fine ( no residue/ discolouring!) Now i switched out the tubing for some masterkleer clear UV stuff and it seems after a week that stuff is clouding too. Look at the two pics. First from when i installed it and 1 week after.

Initial install



one week after

Do you guys think it could be the biocide/ nuke people are using? Do you think that using a silver kill coil would be better when using clear tubing?

 

[m0r7if3r]

Do you guys think it could be the biocide/ nuke people are using? Do you think that using a silver kill coil would be better when using clear tubing?

That's the hypothesis, and barring some significant disproval(is that a word?) of it, it's definitely something to give some testing. If someone had some extra pumps lying around they could order a few feet of each tubing and make 2 loops, one with silver and one with CuSO₄ and see if there's any difference in the rate/amount which they leech placticizer.

 

[Nightman28]

Kinda of new here, but from all of my reading and research on building a loop. Add the infromation that is gathered here, it would seem to me that if you are going to use clear tubing and would like it to stay that way, then only distilled water with a silver kill coil is the only way.

I would test this theory but I don't have all the components that I need yet.

 

[muddocktor]

This is an interesting idea here, especially linking into the pH of the fluid. I don't run clear tubing personally, but I can check the pH of cooling fluids containing the original PTNuke and PHN and see what the difference in pH is between them at recommended dosage levels. I have a $350 Oakton pH meter that I bought last year for work and I keep a proper 3 point calibration on it, since water based drilling fluids are so pH dependent.

 

[xander89]

That's the hypothesis, and barring some significant disproval(is that a word?) of it, it's definitely something to give some testing. If someone had some extra pumps lying around they could order a few feet of each tubing and make 2 loops, one with silver and one with CuSO₄ and see if there's any difference in the rate/amount which they leech placticizer.

well mate i have another 4 meters of this masterkleer stuff kicking about. I'm also doing some serious pics of my build ( check here for progress) with a 5d etc so i will want my tubing looking as nice as possible for that so i will redo my loop. But ill grab some distilled ( i can order some on ebay instead of using deionised) and silver kill coil instead. Ill see what the results are like after a few weeks of that, compare them to dionised and mayhem biocide and maybe we can shed some light on it.

 

[Nebulous]

Interesting read indeed. I also noticed that with the "generic" tubing from an XSPC kit and Masterkleer, they both got clouded within the same amount of time (6mos) and only using distilled water and PTNuke.

 

[DigitalMonkey]

Interesting read indeed. I also noticed that with the "generic" tubing from an XSPC kit and Masterkleer, they both got clouded within the same amount of time (6mos) and only using distilled water and PTNuke.

How long has your loop been running with distilled and ptnuke? Also, what brand of tubing are you using? Any clouding or discoloration in the loop?

 

[dtrunk]

can anyone confirm, deny, comment on their water also being OZONATED; and if/how/why this would affect the loop. I SERIOUSLY went overboard on making sure NOT to contaminate the loop with finger oil and to make SURE everything was flushed; even flushed with distilled a few times.

 

[Nebulous]

How long has your loop been running with distilled and ptnuke? Also, what brand of tubing are you using? Any clouding or discoloration in the loop?

At first I was using the tubing that came with the XSPC kit (Unsure of brand), but 90 days later with PTNuke & Distilled water the tubing clouded up with a white film inside the walls. Swapped out to Masterkleer alttle over a month and it also is getting clouded the same way.

This particular wc setup I've only been using for like 4 months. Using Masterkleer/ClearFlex on my previous setups for years both have the same results: Tubing gets clouded with white film on the inner walls. Blocks, Res & pump remain clear.

*Edit*

Forgot to mention there was no discoloring, just the white clouding film in the tubing.

 

[xander89]

At first I was using the tubing that came with the XSPC kit (Unsure of brand), but 90 days later with PTNuke & Distilled water the tubing clouded up with a white film inside the walls. Swapped out to Masterkleer alttle over a month and it also is getting clouded the same way.

This particular wc setup I've only been using for like 4 months. Using Masterkleer/ClearFlex on my previous setups for years both have the same results: Tubing gets clouded with white film on the inner walls. Blocks, Res & pump remain clear.

*Edit*

Forgot to mention there was no discoloring, just the white clouding film in the tubing.

exactly the same story for me ( well mine went a little yellow as you can see in the pic) with dionised and mayhem biocide. Seems we have had almost identical things happen with the exact same tubing. It must be something to do with the bioicde/ptnuke. Well at least thats the primary suspect

 

[Diggrr]

Ever the wet blanket....

I've used milky white silicone tubing, master clear, tygon, and Cheap home depot tubing, and it has all gotten cloudy within 6-8 months.
This current system that I just put together is the FIRST time I've used a biocide (dead-water).
It's not the biocide doing it.

For the system, I clean to near surgical perfection. Well as close as I can get at home. I even cover openings with aluminum tape if I'm not going to fill it immediately.

I've used Absopure steam distilled water, my own self-distilled water, and even boiled tap water (in my bong). I've used water blocks with plastic tops, acetyl tops, and even 100% copper water blocks without a difference.

Every brand I've ever used with several types of water goes cloudy, without having biocide. I'd think that temps have more to do with it than anything. If it's plasticizers leaching out, I'd expect higher water temp systems to show it first.

 

[TiZakit]

That settles it then. Put together a new loop. Run with out PC turned on for 1+ weeks. View results. It still only tells us that heat contributes to the problem though.

 

[Nebulous]

I'm going to order some Dead-water as a friend of mine explained to me he's been using it and has not encountered the cloudy white film. It's been 4 months now and his tubing is clear as day-1. I already have some new tubing (Home Depot Crap), but i'm going to order some MasterKleer. Hopefully with the dead-water I won't get the white cloud of doom, lol.

 

[m0r7if3r]

Dead water uses copper sulfate (CuSO₄), so I don't think that it will do anything.

 

[Nebulous]

Dead water uses copper sulfate (CuSO₄), so I don't think that it will do anything.

Good to know, thx