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IMPROVING STABILITY

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A

andyctd

New Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Hello!

I have a few months experience in overclocking numerous systems,
I work at company that build-install-test-oc's computers in the UK Im an apprentice and Ive come here to learn more about the settings I use because I get a lot of mixed messages at work.
I'm going to talk start off by talking about the two most common boards I overclock on; Gigabyte z97 and asus z97, and the cpu - i7 4770k (if this post progresses I will most likely start reffering to 4790k.)

Basically when I first started I was taught two sets of settings for these two manufactures, (mainly because of their wordings and language its obviously going to be slightly different).

I will First start with Asus z97 4770k 4.1Ghz

Go to Advanced mode - Ai tweaker
Set Ai overclock tuner to XMP if available
CPU core ratio - Sync all cores - 41
CPU core voltage - Manual mode - 1.175

Then enter DIGI++ and set
CPU VRM Switchin frequency - 350MHz
CPU phase control - Optimised
CPU power duty control - T.Probe


Now Gigabyte z97 4770k 4.1Ghz

Performance -

Frequency
CPU clock ratio - 41

Enter advanced cpu core settings
Uncore ratio - 38 (for 4670k) 39 (for 4770k)

Voltage
CPU Vcore - 1.175

Recently we've had a change in management and he's taught me a different way which is as follows

Asus z97 4770k 4.1Ghz

Go to Advanced mode - Ai tweaker
Set Ai overclock tuner to XMP if available if not Manual
CPU strap 100mhz
PLL selection - LC PLL
Filter PLL - Low BCLK mode
Sync all cores - 41
Min & Max cache - 41
Internal PPL voltage - Disabled
DRAM Freq - 1600 or whatever freq RAM is
CPU core voltage - 1.175
CPU spread spectrum - Disabled

Then enter DIGI++ and set
Load Line Calibration - Level 3/4
CPU VRM Switchin frequency - 350MHz
CPU phase control - Optimised
CPU power duty control - T.Probe
CPU current capability - 110%

Now Gigabyte z97 4770k 4.1Ghz

Performance -

Frequency
CPU Base Clock - Manual
CPU clock ratio - 41

Enter advanced cpu core settings
CPU PLL Selection - LC PLL
Filter PLL Level - Low
Uncore ratio - 41

Voltage
VRIN External Loadline Calibration - Standard
CPU Vcore - 1.175

My first boss seems to have simple basic strategy that worked as we do around 50 systems a day we need to have a fast and quick strategy we can follow...


So my Questions
My new boss is saying always have cache and cpu ratio 1:1 cpu core ratio 40 - max cache ratio 40, cpu core ratio 41? max cache ratio 41 etc etc
My old boss disagrees and I've watched a lot of videos and done a lot of reading and Asus are saying 1:1 ratio is best for performance but hard to achieve stability and its better for max cache to be 100-300mhz below the CPU core ratio they go on to say they achieved best results with a max cache of 39-40?
Why is my new boss convinced otherwise?
Is it because we rarely OC past 4.1-4.2Ghz so we can achieve stability easily and still get the performance benefit from running the CPU cache-core ratio the same?
(Even though I have heard this performance benefit is minimal)

Also
Does CPU strap 100mhz, PPL selection - LC PLL, Filter PLL - Low BCLK mode ...add stability? If it doesnt why does he use these settings?

Loadline Calibration?
From what I've learnt and please correct me if I'm wrong that when you set you're Vcore the intel chipset drops the voltage a bit to protect the CPU creating Vdroop.. So you set you're Vcore in the bios to say 1.4 and when you're idling in windows CPU-Z will read 1.4 however under load it will drop to say 1.36 due to Vdroop.. LLC counteracts this by boosting the Load voltage up to idle voltage however having a too high load line overshoots the idle voltage? For example 1.4 may overshoot to 1.46 at level 8.

So is what I've just said correct? Also how do you select the correct Level? Level 1-8 on Asus or on Gigabyte Regular, Standard, High, Ultra High, Extreme

Also CPU current capability
My new boss briefly set use 110%, use higher for higher overclocks? Does this help improve stability? Would 120% on a 4.0Ghz overclock make it more stable if I was struggling to reach stability (I'm guessin it would waste a lot of power and create more heat and should be used for 4.3GHz plus?)

Also CPU VRM Switchin frequency - 350mhz
My old boss used to say above 4.3Ghz use 400mhz my new boss says always 350.. however I see some boards go up to 500mhz (was the sabertooth z97 mark 1 I was looking at).. I was reading a lot about VRMs the other day and surely the higher switching frequency the better would it not reduce ripple voltage on the signal or is it strictly the amount of phases the mobo has that does that? Is 350mhz enough and 350+ is more motherboard manufacturers showing off they can get 350+?


And more also's lol
Also is there anything else that can be done to increase the stability of the overclock? Another guy came over the other day and increased the CPU VRIN External overide voltage to 1.9 (I believe it to be 1.8 at stock) he said this helps stability but said not to worry about it

Also I've seen Asus talking about CPU I/O voltages and Cache voltages can they be adjusted to improve stability I'm sure that was what he was saying on youtube yet that it wasn't that higher or lower was better just some CPU's prefer certain voltages (think this was I/O voltage)

Are the other settings you can adjust to help improve stability?

So please answer all question and I'm grateful for all you're answers however please refrain from just tellin me to up the Vcore I'm well aware lol
 
We went over all of this in the chat... I can paste those answers in here as well...

Code: 
New [07-09, 14:15] mdcomp 	 Just checking in during my lunch break, but welcome to the forums: andyctd  ...let us know if you need any help
New [07-09, 13:18] EarthDog 	 Yes...(see previous comments though)
New [07-09, 13:17] andyctd 	 you'd adjust LLC until load voltage =Vcore in CPU-Z
New [07-09, 13:17] EarthDog 	 The REAL goal with LLC is with overclocking, if you are not stable under load, enabling LLC will help make things stable.
New [07-09, 13:17] andyctd 	 So if you where trying to diminish vdroop
New [07-09, 13:16] EarthDog 	 And truthfully it doesn't even have to do that (match idle voltage).
New [07-09, 13:14] EarthDog 	 The goal there is to make it match the idle windows voltage on load... that is it... doesn't matter if its set to 1, or 8, or low, or extreme, that is the end game there...
New [07-09, 13:13] EarthDog 	 Sometimes that happens as every board is different.
New [07-09, 13:13] EarthDog 	 So don't put it to extreme...
New [07-09, 13:13] andyctd 	 by massively it was +0.086V
New [07-09, 13:11] andyctd 	 and by extreme its overshooting massively
New [07-09, 13:11] andyctd 	 it overshoots at high
New [07-09, 13:10] andyctd 	 on that link it shows you regular,standard,high,ultra high and extreme
New [07-09, 13:09] andyctd 	 but then gets to a stage where it overshoots?
New [07-09, 13:03] EarthDog 	 Each level you go up aims to reduce the droop.
New [07-09, 13:00] andyctd 	 lvl 1-8
New [07-09, 13:00] andyctd 	 how does the leveling relate to the vdroop?
New [07-09, 12:57] EarthDog 	 If he wants to raise the vcore, raise it. LLC is there to prevent vdroop.
New [07-09, 12:57] EarthDog 	 vcore
New [07-09, 12:57] EarthDog 	 LLC has NOTHING to do with a 'higher
New [07-09, 12:57] EarthDog 	 It depends on the board to how the LLC responds.. it will be different with every board.
New [07-09, 12:51] andyctd 	 because maybe thats what he meant set level 3 so we can set a higher Vcore  
New [07-09, 12:49] andyctd 	 so does llc level 3-4 have vdroop? and level 7-8 have non
New [07-09, 12:48] andyctd 	 haha i did say my boss was foreign
New [07-09, 12:48] EarthDog 	 Its like the blind leading the blind at that company man... 
New [07-09, 12:48] EarthDog 	 You act like I knew who that was...LOL
New [07-09, 12:48] andyctd 	 hard work when your boss is polish
New [07-09, 12:47] andyctd 	 lol
New [07-09, 12:47] andyctd 	 Exactly
New [07-09, 12:47] EarthDog 	 ?

Wow, not all of that long long discussion was there to copy...LOL!


EDIT: Also, the "frontpage" tag is specifically for threads that are attached to articles on the front page. Leave those alone. :)
 
Last edited:
I think also a lot of members do not understand what LLC does in respect of other aspects, above MEDIUM / HIGH setting it can cause very high Voltage Spikes!! :eek:

900x900px-LL-62561606_transient_no_vdroop_no_offset.jpeg

900x900px-LL-ddbcf219_transient_no_vdroop.jpeg



This is understood to shorten the life of the CPU, so if its possible you should not use Ultra or Extreme for long periods, 24/7 use. ;) :thup:

AJ.
 
EarthDog said:
We went over all of this in the chat... I can paste those answers in here as well...
Click to expand...

You told me to make a thread as it was tideous in chat and for others opinions :bang head are you trollin :rain: JK cheers for your help
 
Ajay57 said:
I think also a lot of members do not understand what LLC does in respect of other aspects, above MEDIUM / HIGH setting it can cause very high Voltage Spikes!! :eek:

View attachment 146370

View attachment 146371



This is understood to shorten the life of the CPU, so if its possible you should not use Ultra or Extreme for long periods, 24/7 use. ;) :thup:

AJ.
Click to expand...

So Ultra and extreme create big voltage spikes when first making the idle/load switch and then run very stable at the idle voltage?

Say you set a 1.4v Vcore and Extreme LLC... could this create an overshoot of say 1.52 maybe and kill the chip?
 
It can happen at low/1. BUT, not all boards do this even in the same line, and it's really not a huge problem anyway (why I didn't mention it as I didn't want to travel down that wormhole for little reason.).

As was said, it degradation not an instant kill.
 
LLC on Z97 boards is for Vrin or Vccin volts, it does not affect vcore.

What is interesting, is that intel prior to fivr (fully integrated voltage regulator) always specified a need for vdroop. So end user that didnt want vcore dropping during load (as from stability point that isnt what you want) were at odds with intels inexpensive method of voltage regulation (vdroop).

So now what happens when end user can not control LLC of vcore anymore?

you can use a multimeter to measure vcore if mobo has readouts, or use HWM (less accurate with software but can see same thing).

I have spent some time on my UD5h Z97 board with my fluke multimeter checking volts, and hwm checking power.

Independent of any bios setting... vcore with 1.282 set in bios, upon idle vcore is 1.281 via multimeter, but mild load (ie cinebench) vcore increases to 1.288, upon prime load vcore increases to 1.293. (same increases can be seen with hardware monitor vcore). This aggressive LLC logic is either from fivr or motherboard manufactures presumably following intel specs but there is no setting in bios for the end user to affect this LLC logic (others have reported same thing on other mobos, not just my GB board). I just find it interesting that intel specifices vdroop for mobos prior to fivr integration..but now ? intel or mobos manufact? implemented an aggressive LLC logic to cpu that can not be turned off. All power savings features are turned off in my bios and in windows software.

regaring LLC vrin (which has no effect on vcore LLC logic):
on gigabyte board, if my vrin/vccin volts is set to 1.8v (stock), I get following multimeter readings for various LLC settings:
vccin on low LLC or auto or standard.... vccin volts 1.76 idle, 1.72 load (i rounded volts from last digit)
vccin on medium LLC.............................vccin volts 1.78 idle, 1.74 load
vccin on high LLC.................................. vccin volts 1.80 idle, 1.80 load
vccin on turbo LLC................................. vccin volts 1.81 idle, 1.83 load
didnt test it on extreme LLC, and all load testing was prime 28.5 small ffts.
 
the only thing i'm going to say about llc is that i use the least i can.
on the cache clock i have found on my 4790k that 200 less than the cpu clock works best and in benching higher cache clocks buy me zero.
 
andyct, the big picture of LLC is that it supplements core voltage in big chunks. Yes, the original purpose was to offset vdroop but in some motherboard implementations it seems to also be used to provide vcore boost under load (when it's most needed to maintain stability but not so much at idle when it's not needed for stability. In that kind of an implementation you kind of get the best of both worlds in that there's extra vcore needed for stability under load by less where and tear on the silicone when doing light computing. So use LLC for ballpark voltage adjustments when overclocking and then dial it in with Offset. So if it takes the Utra level of LLC to make it stable at a given overclock, back it off to the next lowest LLC setting (High?) and then use the offset to add small amounts of vcore to the baseline voltage until you find the minimum needed for stability under load.
 
The one thing I would add is that you can use it with offset or override..

I also use it in the opposite manner in that i use override volts to get to the ballpark then my fine adjustments are with llc. Llc only supplements load voltage remember so it's hard to get in the ballpark without adjusting the base voltage first. ;)
 
Last edited:
Is loadline calibration technically speaking applying an Voffset to the Vcore when under load? Im getting a bit lost here I've just read that haswells have an iVR so is this what rge means that the load line is now boosting/stabilising the Vccin?
 
Its raising voltage upon load, yes. Whether you call it an offset or what, it is raising voltage on load.
 
And is haswell the first generation to have FIVR atm Im visioning 12v coming from the psu which is then regulated down to around 1.8v which = Vccin this then goes to a integrated voltage regulator inside the haswell chip that regulators the voltages down further to stock VID of around 1.05-1.10. How was this done before did voltage go from 12v before the VRMs straight to 1.05 Vcore? Or where sandy bridge's stock voltages a lot higher?
 
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