Insulating for Cascade vs. SS Phase?

[TsunamiJuan]

I don't know what people are using for boards these days, but I know a good chunk of the ASRock boards are now conformaled. Which is extremely helpful. Granted there are still places in sockets and slots that you can have condesnation problems but it certainly does help the prep process.

Big places you are gonna see creep and melt are Memory slots tend to get alot of creep from cold these days. The closer the socket is the memory the worse this tends to be. Small power phases for memory also tend get some creep and melt around them, most of the time these phases are good 2" or so away from the sockets. The main power phases don't get creep so much as they can melt the cold. Keep in mind aswell that you might want to identify the power phase controller chips ahead of time, for distance to socket, In some situations you might find it a requirement to heat these keeps to keep them stable and happy.

In situations where cold creep is a major problem try to avoid Eraser. Conformal or let are good for these situations. If your not comfortable doing that to a board, Use eraser sparingly as needed, than fill in with frostking/neoprene. Even if you use conformal you still want to use a certain degree of closed cell insuation, to act as a moisture barrier. this is extremely helpful around memory and around main VRM's.

even doing a good insulation job, your gonna need a good amount of fans, To blow warm/hot air to prevent cold creep into the memory and power phases. Since even neoprene gets cold enough over time to start to condense and frost up, Since you need multiple inches of coverage to really prevent icing, and thats not usually a luxury we have these days due to decreasing board sizes and component density.

 

[funsoul]

Thanks again TsunamiJuan

So...silly question I'm sure but...do I need to fully conformal or LET the boards or can I just do small squares top and bottom with nail polish like in k|ngp|n's guide?

Sounding like I should use conformal or LET on the top and bottom like here: http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=677727 and here: http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=667049 ?

What's the difference between using conformal and liquid electrical tape? Is one better and/or easier than the other? What are most of the monsters of overclocking using these days?

Other than that...is this ( http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums...on-using-a-LN2-DI-unit-the-clean-and-easy-way ) still the best guide?

Only seeing silicon conformal spray on-line (but obviously np to order). Have a couple big rolls of frost king (2 sizes), about a 1/2 sheet of 1/2" and 1" neoprene. Anything else I need to get insulating?

 

[TsunamiJuan]

You can remove LET is one of the big things, though it can be a real pain in the ***, it also has a negative effect of insulting things tempwise some, so if your coating over something hot that needs to be able to breathe under air operation or doesn't nessicairly get wet or super cold during a run anyways, it can be a pain.

Silicon conformal is a interesting application method, Mask everything off and then blast the board with it. You want to start with a light coat so the first coat adheres to the base, Then a heavier coat afterwards so you can then use gravity to your advantage and get it to creep under the components with the excess. which is why most of the time you will notice that spray applicated conformal has solvent popping going on with the surface finish, since you need to spray kinda heavy to get enough to slosh around. There is really no removing conformal, there is solvents that you can use to break through it and the really good ones turn into a flux when you go to solder on them. But its extremely obvious when you conformal a board and no returns. So you really need to make sure your stuff works before you do it.

I would say the main area you want to make sure is water proofed is the socket, area, and under the socket, the memory slots, and the VRM's. Including the supplementary VRM's around the memory sockets and first few sata ports.

If your running a video card cold aswell, than you need to water proof around the sockets, aswell as in the socket (vasoline or dielectric grease, Honestly vasoline is easier to clean than Dielectric grease though dielectric grease is generally much thinner, and experiences less expansion than a large amount of vasoline can if you pack stuff to much).

It helps to figure out about how long your intending to run, since your talking about a cascade, your probably gonna be doing long runs. Which increases your build up chances. Enough that your probably gonna want to spend the time to really do it well to start with, rather than have to strip the insulation down between runs to get the water that creeps into stuff off.

Honestly Time wise, I say spend the time to conformal, It doesn't 100% protect memory card slots, but the amount of time it will take you to do a good job conformal coating a board, Is still gonna work out close to the time you would spend doing hit and miss protection with LET and nail polish, and then Pack inbetween the memoryslots with eraser, and some armaflex on the side closest to the socket, Since that still will get the coldest and often sweat.

if your really running into memory condenstation issues, You could allways pack them completely in armaflex and water cool them, so that you can provide some good ambient heat to them still without the surfaces being exposed to sweat.

As for frost king, Even when I conformal a board I still stack the stuff on around the sockets and Vrm's, to help minimize surface contact, Since a smoother surface has a much higher chance of having condesnation form, than the rougher and more insulated surface of the frost king.

 

[funsoul]

Thanks again TJ!

Yeah...definitely want to do it right the first time. Have a few boards (and a bunch of vga cards) that need prepping so don't want to waste too much time on trial and error.

Is this the right conformal spray to get? http://www.techspray.com/p-63-ht-hi...ng.aspx?referrer=/c-4-conformal-coatings.aspx For how many mobos do you think that can's good?

When you say no returns....everything I'll be benching is way out of warranty already (like an x48 REX) so not worried about returns just potential repairs. Asus charges a flat rate of something like $120 for repairs. Would they still fix, for example a socket with a bunch of bent pins, or will they even refuse to repair it if it has conformal?

Yeah...imagine I'll be doing some decent runs (2-3 hours at a go anyway) and will eventually be taking vga cards cold.

So...sounds like:
- tape over slots and any connectors I plan to ever use (sata ports, fan headers, etc)
- apply conformal to top and bottom (2 coats, first light, 2nd heavy and slosh it around)
- gently scrape the conformal off the tops of anything that needs to breathe (like mosfets)
- follow k|ngp|n's guide for the rest of the frostking and neoprene insulation work
- add fannage above the board

On the fan situation...iirc read somewhere that 1 fan should be pulling air up off the surface of the board and then have the 2nd one blowing down across the ram. That the way to do it?

When I want to cold bench vga...pack the slots with dielectric grease or vaseline. (ewww...gross hehe)

That all sound right now?

Another question (may as well try to get them all out here hehe)...Can I still watercool the nb or use full-cover mobo waterblocks? Thinking since the water's flowing it won't be an issue but, then again, you've got me a little nervous with the cold creep thing. hehe

Anyway...thanks again for all your time and patience TsunamiJuan! Really appreciate your help!

 

[TsunamiJuan]

I would use the normal, temp tech spray, there is no reason to use the high temp stuff, since if you go to solder through it, it wont melt or do repair work you will have problems.

http://www.techspray.com/p-59-sr-silicone-conformal-coating.aspx

thats the stuff I been using. I average 2-3 boards I think? I have had a good mix of video cards in there aswell so its hard to say. I also spray heavy. Also Might I add, it helps to give your boards a day or two, for curing. I also like to preheat my boards before I spray (partly cause I live in a cold enough area that its below adherence temp most of the time). Toss em in the over for a few minutes bring em up to 120f or so (they cool off extremely fast cause of the heavy copper layers), you can heat them somewhat during the drying process aswell if needed, just make sure they are extremely well ventilated ( I throw some tinfoil around em and just put them someplace warmish to keep the heat in)

Keep in mind when using this tech spray get yourself a Respirator, the real ones with two large carbon filters, they are much cheaper than a visit to the hospital with chemical induced pneumonia. You probably also want to cover your arms and hands, or spray in a direction that it doesn't get on you. Since it can irritate the skin. The stuff is mostly dangerous in an atomized/misted form. Once its laying flat on a surface its fairly safe.

As for fans I like to a lot of them, the ram cooler fans work great alot of times for memory and north bridge, or even vrms's and then a couple of large ones on a fan controller, for heating aroundthe outside of the pot to keep moisture down.

I would suggest you watch your water temps and block temps, if the block is approaching freezing you probably want to think about adding some sort of antifreeze to your solution. During cold runs for things like bus chips and memory you might find that things get enough cold creep that you don't need to run a fan on the radiator and use it more like a heater instead.

 

[funsoul]

Finally taped off the board, applied a light coat (of the sillycone-based spray you recommended) front and back, let it dry/set for a few days. Last night applied the 2nd, thick coat moving the board around to get the conformal to spread around and into the little nooks and crannies. Now just have to wait for it to fully dry and then gently scrape the conformal off the mosfets.

Am a little nervous since it's my first time but keeping my fingers crossed that all's good.

 

[TsunamiJuan]

Nervous is good, Makes you double check your work So much of cold prep is taking the time to do it right before you start even if your only benching for a small period of time.

 

[funsoul]

Merry Christmas folks!

Finally conformalled the rex. Thin, even first coat followed by 2 heavy coats (puddling a bit so I could slosh it around everywhere). Keeping my fingers crossed that everything's ok.

So...now want to double-check what items to scrape the conformal off of before proceeding. In the pic below...the stuff circled in red I'm almost certain should have the tops scraped clean of conformal. The orange circles are items where I think should be scraped but am really not sure. The rectangular cap on the back of the mobo/socket should also be scraped, right?

Could ya'll please take a look and confirm the components that need work?

Thanks (and hope you and your's are excellent this holiday season!)

 

[xsuperbgx]

just scrape the stuff that touches the thermal tape. I don't think that the chokes matter, mostly the vregs

 

[funsoul]

Thanks xsuperbgx

Hmmm...thought the tops of the mosfets around the cpu socket needed to be scraped.

Sorry to be a dunce...not sure what every component is named or looks like :/ The mosfets are the ones circled in orange above, right?

Do those caps around the socket need to be scraped? What about the cap on the back of the mobo socket? Know I've got to scrape the areas where the heatsinks mount.

Thoughts? Could someone confirm? Could someone mark the exact components that need scraping for me? Sorry to be a pita...just really want to make sure I do this right the first time.

tia (and merry christmas, chanukah, qwanzaa, etc!)

 

[xsuperbgx]

do you have the heatsinks that go on there? IF so, scrape whatever touches the thermal tape on the heatsinks. That is the only reason to clean it off.

 

[funsoul]

Yep...have the heatsinks. So only need to scrape those off? Nothing else?

 

[funsoul]

OK...scraped off all the stuff that sits under the heatsinks. Just a couple more questions....

Take a look at the pic....I've scraped all the components circled in red. Should I scape the components circled in green, too?

Also...anyone have an idea as to what thickness thermal tape I should use? Didn't 'measure' them before removing everything and applying conformal. :/

Thanks!!

 

[m0r7if3r]

If there wasn't a HS on it, don't scrape it. You probably want tpads, not ttape (the difference being that ttape is adhesive). How do the heights of the components sit in relation to the HS? Does it seem like they could all run on one tape? The thickness itself shouldn't matter unless you have mixed heights for a given HS.

 

[funsoul]

Thanks m0r7if3r
Yeah...am using thermal pads not tape...brain burp. That section of the heatsink's a bit klugey. Will look closer when I get home tonight but it looks like it 'touches' a few of those components (some only partially which is weird).

 

[m0r7if3r]

It looks like you've still got the old tpads on there, do you not want to just reuse those?

 

[funsoul]

Nah...have some very nice thermal pads that I'll be using. Definitely an upgrade from the original ones.

 

[m0r7if3r]

Well I guess your other option is to measure thicknesses on the current ones. Do they look about the same?

 

[funsoul]

Yep...will be doing the visual inspection method. Have a few different thicknesses so will get something figured out. Haven't played with it much more yet...other than work and family stuff...been setting up for next round of benching (2700k/phase, 3870x2/water).

Will be sure to post back next week when I get back to the rex.
Thanks again m0r7if3r

 

[m0r7if3r]

happy to help