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One thing is for sure 85*c is a furnace! I mean I the FX system don't even break 60C fully loaded! There is a huge difference from 60c to 85c that can cook and egg!
It's like AMD gives a great CPU now with a TDP of 100c like OMG WTF!? Seems like a sacrifice has taken place and heat has been the end result. Faster chip all around (Clock speeds not with standing) resulted in a CPU that runs hotter.
 
Thermal Design Power is measured in Watts, not Celsuis. Not sure if AMD calls it the same thing but the max temperature for Intel is called tjmax. This architecture has raised the max temp allowed, yes.

My initial analogy and trents explanation should clear up the differences between heat and temperature....

.... in other words, even though the temperature is lower, that fx could likely cook the egg faster. Again, at the same temperature, which would cook an egg faster a bonfire or a lighter? Sure there is a temp difference on the CPUs but scaling on fx is different (and ryzen tops out a lot lower).
 
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One thing is for sure 85*c is a furnace! I mean I the FX system don't even break 60C fully loaded! There is a huge difference from 60c to 85c that can cook and egg!
It's like AMD gives a great CPU now with a TDP of 100c like OMG WTF!? Seems like a sacrifice has taken place and heat has been the end result. Faster chip all around (Clock speeds not with standing) resulted in a CPU that runs hotter.

Either you're not reading or really just don't understand some of the concepts here!

Yes the Ryzen runs hotter but the FX still, even at 60° produces more heat. Pretty much anyone who has run both will whole heartedly agree to this!
This was not sacrificed it comes down to the physical substrate properties of the die. The FX can't survive much over 60° for any length of time without doing permanent damage to the die. AMD changed their process so that now the Ryzen die can withstand higher temperatures before there is any damage to the silicon. These are physical limitations of the die. AMD didn't just decide to raise the temperature limit so they could get more speed out of the CPU they changed the properties of the CPU and 100° is now it's physical limit.
 
OMG. I just can not believe what I am hearing. LMAO!
Okay so what you are saying is that 85c is not only the same as 60c is it cooler. OMG you all are really serious here LOL.

If you have one bucket that holds 2 gallons and one bucket that holds 5 gallons , how many buckets do you have??

I am at a total loos for words.

I say one runs hotter than the other and you say NOPE that 85c is far cooler than that 60c OMG you all need to stop drinking koolaid!
Not to mention you try to actually use sudo science to explain it like you know some thing!

How is it you can look at 60c and say that it is cooler than 85c? WOW! Then use some flame analogy to try and explain it?

If you have a HUNK of steal that is running at a constant 60c and add MORE power = Energy to it it will only get hotter unless it can get rid of that extra power, if that metal can not get rid of the heat fast enough it just keeps going up and up. You all seem to just focus on silicone when there are 2 materials in use One silicon one metal and it can even have 3 different materials like copper and aluminum or heat pipes.

So to me it seems that the numbers as such the FX8300 at 60c is cooler than the Ryzen at 85c (full load over volted and over clocked).
I do not know about you but the lower number is far smaller than the bigger number by 25 numbers that seems contrary to what you say. what you are trying to tell me is that 85c is cooler than 60c MY GOD I am just astonished! So stand behind it and double down call me wrong and everything BUT science DOES NOT LIE! NOR do NUMBERS! I must be reading NUMBERS WRONG all my life! I mean if it is 70 degrees out it must be far hotter than that too? Or cooler I am confused NOW!
 
OMG. I just can not believe what I am hearing. LMAO!
Okay so what you are saying is that 85c is not only the same as 60c is it cooler. OMG you all are really serious here LOL.

If you have one bucket that holds 2 gallons and one bucket that holds 5 gallons , how many buckets do you have??

I am at a total loos for words.

I say one runs hotter than the other and you say NOPE that 85c is far cooler than that 60c OMG you all need to stop drinking koolaid!
Not to mention you try to actually use sudo science to explain it like you know some thing!

How is it you can look at 60c and say that it is cooler than 85c? WOW! Then use some flame analogy to try and explain it?

If you have a HUNK of steal that is running at a constant 60c and add MORE power = Energy to it it will only get hotter unless it can get rid of that extra power, if that metal can not get rid of the heat fast enough it just keeps going up and up. You all seem to just focus on silicone when there are 2 materials in use One silicon one metal and it can even have 3 different materials like copper and aluminum or heat pipes.

So to me it seems that the numbers as such the FX8300 at 60c is cooler than the Ryzen at 85c (full load over volted and over clocked).
I do not know about you but the lower number is far smaller than the bigger number by 25 numbers that seems contrary to what you say. what you are trying to tell me is that 85c is cooler than 60c MY GOD I am just astonished! So stand behind it and double down call me wrong and everything BUT science DOES NOT LIE! NOR do NUMBERS! I must be reading NUMBERS WRONG all my life! I mean if it is 70 degrees out it must be far hotter than that too? Or cooler I am confused NOW!
Again, you are confused. Yes. :)

85C is hotter than 60C, correct. Nobody refuted that point.
Yes the Ryzen runs hotter but the FX still, even at 60° produces more heat.
Just because a CPU runs hotter doesn't mean it puts out more heat (TDP)

What did come into question was calling Ryzen a "blast furnace". Though the temperatures run hotter, the energy behind it is less making it easier to manage from both a temperature and energy perspective. For example, let's say you were rocking FX at 60C x.xx volts. At that speed and voltage the CPU may use 250W and reach 60C. Ryzen on the other hand, may reach 85C but use 150W in the process. The FX CPU die is huge compared to Ryzen (IIRC its like 313mm2 versus 213 mm2) so it is more difficult to get heat out of a smaller die as the surface area is smaller.

The flame analogy is spot on in this case. Let's use a blast furnace though since that is the word de jure. Say you have a huge one and a little one... both run at 2000F... do you think that they will both take the same amount of energy to run even though one is huge and one little? Let's say you needed to keep them at temperature... do you think the small blast furnace will take more or less 'effort' (energy) to do so? (it will take less)

So, yes, Ryzen does run hotter (temps), but its substrate and architecture are made for doing so (unlike bulldozer) and it is also more efficient when scaling. So just because it is hotter temperature wise, doesn't mean it takes less energy to cool it. Again, what fire would be easier to put out? A lighter at 500F or a bonfire at 500F? Clearly a bonfire has more heat in it than the single flame of a lighter.


It is clear there is a disconnect between heat and temps here (confirmed when you TDP was listed in degrees instead of Watts - even after johan's post saying TDP). Some reading RE: the science (not "sudo" science) of heat and temperature - https://www.google.com/search?q=dif...0j69i57j0l2.5914j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
 
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to reiterate what others have said.... heat is not temperature.
 
OMG. I just can not believe what I am hearing. LMAO!
Okay so what you are saying is that 85c is not only the same as 60c is it cooler. OMG you all are really serious here LOL.

If you have one bucket that holds 2 gallons and one bucket that holds 5 gallons , how many buckets do you have??

I am at a total loos for words.

I say one runs hotter than the other and you say NOPE that 85c is far cooler than that 60c OMG you all need to stop drinking koolaid!
Not to mention you try to actually use sudo science to explain it like you know some thing!

How is it you can look at 60c and say that it is cooler than 85c? WOW! Then use some flame analogy to try and explain it?

If you have a HUNK of steal that is running at a constant 60c and add MORE power = Energy to it it will only get hotter unless it can get rid of that extra power, if that metal can not get rid of the heat fast enough it just keeps going up and up. You all seem to just focus on silicone when there are 2 materials in use One silicon one metal and it can even have 3 different materials like copper and aluminum or heat pipes.

So to me it seems that the numbers as such the FX8300 at 60c is cooler than the Ryzen at 85c (full load over volted and over clocked).
I do not know about you but the lower number is far smaller than the bigger number by 25 numbers that seems contrary to what you say. what you are trying to tell me is that 85c is cooler than 60c MY GOD I am just astonished! So stand behind it and double down call me wrong and everything BUT science DOES NOT LIE! NOR do NUMBERS! I must be reading NUMBERS WRONG all my life! I mean if it is 70 degrees out it must be far hotter than that too? Or cooler I am confused NOW!

Since the science behind this is lost and you can understand numbers lets look at some. Do you understand what TDP is or why it is used when describing a processor? To make this easy it's a simple guide for a consumer when picking a cooler for the CPU, this isn't exactly what it means but the relatioship is there.

Ryzen 7 2700X has a TDP of 105 W when overclocked all out ambient it's ~ 150 W being generous
FX 9590 has a TDP of 220 W ( which was greatly understated IMO) used as example of overclocked FX CPU base speed 4.7 GHz

As you can see the FX CPU @ 60° is still 70 W higher than the Ryzen at 90° that is 70 more Watts of heat that need to be disipated. Have you ever grabbed on to a 60 Watt lightbulb while it's on?
The FX CPU is still putting out more heat even at a lower temperature.
 
Temperature:
Temperature is a physical quantity expressing hot and cold. It is measured with a thermometer calibrated in one or more temperature scales. i.e. measure of the warmth or coldness of an object

Heat is defined as:
the quality of being hot; high temperature.

Only thing we know for certain is the higher the TDP the higher the temps, generally speaking.

The FX CPU is still putting out more heat even at a lower temperature.

I think it would be better worded as "The FX CPU has the higher energy requirement despite a lower operating temperature"

Boils down to processor efficiency. You are going to cook an egg fastest on the burner with the highest temperature.
 
Only thing we know for certain is the higher the TDP the higher the temps, generally speaking.

Exactly why I describe the Ryzen as a blast furnace! And all this other analogies that are being floated around are basically confusing people.

You are trying so hard to prove that I am wrong that in the end you proved me right. LOL.
60*C is 25*C cooler than 85*C No matter how you slice it.
85*C is HOT! and just because some thing can go HOTTER Ie.. 100*C only re-enforces my argument that the Ryzen Chip is a BLAST FURNACE! It not only can TAKE the HEAT, It can PRODUCE MORE of it faster!

Hence the Adjective Blast Furnace.
 
Only thing we know for certain is the higher the TDP the higher the temps, generally speaking.
Is it though? For example, Look at 8700K/9900K (95/91W) versus say i9-9820X or similar (165W)... these both run at the same temperatures even though the wattage difference is huge. Or even in the same family.. the 65W coffee lake CPUs versus the 8700K... they all run at the same temps and have the same efficiency/architecture.

Edit: I've had a 5W ASIC from mining device nearly melt my finger... it ran at like 90c
 
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Exactly why I describe the Ryzen as a blast furnace! And all this other analogies that are being floated around are basically confusing people.

You are trying so hard to prove that I am wrong that in the end you proved me right. LOL.
60*C is 25*C cooler than 85*C No matter how you slice it.
85*C is HOT! and just because some thing can go HOTTER Ie.. 100*C only re-enforces my argument that the Ryzen Chip is a BLAST FURNACE! It not only can TAKE the HEAT, It can PRODUCE MORE of it faster!

Hence the Adjective Blast Furnace.

I like how you grabbed onto the only thing that supports your argument and it's wrong. Higher TDP is more heat not higher temperatures.
This all started in the context of what cooler was needed and the FACT you don't need as big a cooler for the Ryzen as you do for the FX because the Ryzen produces less heat.
 
my 60w light bulb filament runs at 4500 degrees, so 60w is greater heat output than your 120w cpu, by this logic.
 
Trickson got tricked:(
I didnt understand how fx runs hotter at lower temps until I heard it has a much bigger die
 
I'll try to give it a shot, although I suspect this user is trolling.

The FX CPUs use a lot more power than Ryzen, at both idle and (much more) under load.
The energy consumed by the CPU is converted into heat, which the CPU cooler helps dissipate.
Ryzen CPUs have a much smaller die size than bulldozer, so it has a higher heat density.
For instance:
Chip A with a surface area of 100mm² which consumes 100W of power will dissipate 1W per square millimeter.
Chip B with a surface area of 50mm² which consumes 75W of power will dissipate 1.5W per square millimeter.
If everything else is the same (cooling, the placement of thermal sensors, and the way these sensors are measured, and multiple other factors that affect the "temperature" reported)
It's quite possible that chip B will run hotter than chip A, even though it uses considerably less power than chip A.

Vishera has a surface area of 315mm² the Zen dies are 213mm². The way temperatures are monitored on the two CPUs is drastically different.
No one really knows how exactly temps are calculated for AMD CPUs. There are dozens of thermal sensors on Zen, in different locations throughout the die, and the reported temperature in software is usually of the highest areas of the chip.
There is no more reliance on thermal diodes from old, Zen reports die temps, similar to how Intel does it.

There are plenty of other factors that affect the running temperature of a CPU besides the above. Things like how flat the IHS is, and how well it makes contact with both the CPU die and the heatsink.
And how well the cooler is able to dissipate heat from a more concentrated source. Just to name a few.

So no, Zen isn't furnace, even though it runs seemingly hotter than FX.
What makes a CPU a furnace is the amount of energy it consumes (amount of power), not how hot it runs.
 
Glad we got that figured out, gentlemen ;)

ED is correct. Only situation where higher TDP would result in higher temps is when overclocking a specific chip, for example.

The higher the TDP the more robust a cooling system is needed.
 
Wow I can't believe this is still being argued. I'll take a crack at explaining this.

What we care about is energy released from the chip, correct? Heat and temperature are not the same. Sources: http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/cosmic_classroom/light_lessons/thermal/differ.html, https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Heat_vs_temperature, https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/heat.

Temperature is a measurement of "average" energy. In other words, you could say amount of energy per silicon molecule. Heat is a measurement of the total energy release, in this case, from the CPU. What is important here is the physical size of each transistor. Think of them like switches. A light switch that is 5 feet tall is going to require (ignoring friction for the purposes of this thought experiment) substantially more energy to move than one that is 1 inch tall, because it is more massive. That's basic physics. The FX-9590 piledriver uses 32nm process while Zen uses 14nm process. In other words the "switches" in a Ryzen are less than half the size of the switches in an FX CPU. Of course there is a substantial degree of oversimplification applied, however this basically means that less than half of the energy is required flip one of these smaller switches, eg power a transistor.

Because the transistor for Ryzen has less mass (less physical size, assuming the silicon has equivalent physical properties, will have correspondingly less mass, and therefore fewer molecules of silicon.) a single transistor will produce less heat (total energy, in this case for the transistor) at the same temperature (average energy per silicon molecule), because there are fewer molecules of silicon producing heat. Roughly this will scale to the entire CPU, given both are 8 cores at the high end. In other words, a Ryzen CPU would have to be over 120 C to produce the same amount of energy (heat) as a FX is producing at 60C.

Now the other problem is that although there is less heat, there is also less surface area through which to distribute the heat that is generated. It makes it more challenging to get the energy (heat) out of the silicon and into the cooling solution. Because of this we are seeing higher temperatures (which is again, only the amount of heat per molecule of silicone, not the total amount of heat produced).

Welp after that probably some physicists and electrical engineers rolling over in their graves, but hopefully it help you understand why a component can be "hotter" (producing more heat) while being "cooler" (operating at a lower temperature). As you can see "hot" and "cold" are too ambiguous for technical discussions of physics. If you continue to use those terms in your arguments, it will be difficult to take the discussion any further due to the ambiguity of your assertions.
 
Covered... by 4 people now saying the same thing (in different ways - some more scientific than others, lol)! :) :thup:

Hopefully those who may have been confused are now clear on the differences and what can affect temps. :)
 
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I can say this My mind is at ease now knowing that the new norm for tDP is 100c, It is still a challenge to keep the temps below 85c now that the new normal has been increased.

Still going to need a cooler that can "take the heat" LOL. The one I have is fine I just think there is better out there.
Ryzen7 1700 @4.0GHz Base clock. Full load 85c is perfectly fine and I am really surprised on the performance of the H7 cooler hasn't let the CPU got past 85c Prime 95 45min.
It would be nice to see a bit cooler temps as I can see the CPU throttle back to like 3.95Mghz once the temp hits 85c on the CPU Not the CPU diode. (strange as that is).
I have maxed out the RAM as far as the speed goes for my board (or so The book say's). 2 sticks 16GB's at 3000Mhz (So far).
This new G skill Trident Z RGB is the best RAM I have ever had since the G skill RipJaws! Just utterly AMAZING RAM! It not only is the best running RAM it is absolutely FANTASTIC LOOKING! Just an amazing eye candy display!
I am also looking for 3 way crossfire on this rig as well.

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4.0GHzcpu 3000MHz ram.jpg
 
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