Loop keeps getting dirty

[Snorlaxxx]

Hi everyone,

six months ago I build a custom water cooling loop for my rig which works great, except it keeps on getting dirty.

The first time I filled my loop I put distilled water, Maythem Biocide and Maythem red dye in it. Looked good for some time.
After four months the liquid started to look opaque and not clear red anymore, but more of an orange / coppery color with small brown "dust". So I thought that might be some colorization from the radiator or the Biocide was too much. When I added it the PH scale wasn't the recommended "blue/green" color (PH 7/8), but quite on the red side (PH 5). Afraid of corrosion, I started to panic and flushed the loop.

This time, being convinced it was the biocides fault, I left the biocide out, since the distilled water already is more on the red side PH wise, even without any additives. Maybe it doesn't matter, but at this point I added a LED flexlight to my build.

Now, two months later I started hearing my PC, which usually is dead silent. After checking the fans I noticed it was the pump. D5 on setting 1. It sounded like it had to work hard, like having to push against some resistance. Then I turned it up to max and the water flow was rather slow, almost looked "gooey"... and I saw that brownish particles dusting up in my res again. The fluid is opaque and orange/copper colored again, too.

So obviously this wasn't the biocides fault, but what can it be?

Corrosion? The dye? Plasticiser?

I use Masterkleer clear tubes btw.

Today I flush it again. This time without dye. But what about the biocide and the low PH?

I try to make some pictures. I don't see any green stuff for now, so it seems it's not algae either...

 

[Snorlaxxx]

Daaaamn!

Overnight the "dust", which I agitated when I set the pump speed to 5 settled at the bottom of the res... It looks even worse after two months like it did the first time after four months.

What the hell is happening and what should I do

 

[dyckah]

its most likely the dye!

 

[Snorlaxxx]

Look at the picture I just posted. Doesn't look like its the dye's fault either.
Maybe the discoloration of the dye, from red to orange, but the spongy thing at the bottom has to be something else.
Its at the inner wall of the tubing as well at some spots.

 

[Mag10]

It might be worth inspecting your blocks internals, I'm no expert but if the loop is completely closed off to outside influences that's the only thing I could suspect.

 

[Snorlaxxx]

What about the blocks? Why should it be their fault?
I don't even know what the stuff is. The possibility of the blocks being clogged or at least containing some of that stuff is there, but they should be easily be flushed.

After the last time I flushed it everything looked clean as it was the first assembly.
Maybe it's the distilled water?!

At first, I, too, thought the dye might be drying up and breaking into small particles, but looking closer this stuff looks organic, so maybe it is algae after all?!
But how could it be? Both times the PH was at 5-6. First time with biocide and the same happened then, too.

 

[dyckah]

i still think it is the dye breaking down.
i dont know how the masterkleer tubing is, maybe it has some plasticizer, but my money is still on the dye.
run distilled+biocide, or some silver!

 

[Snorlaxxx]

Maybe the picture is not clear enough, but the res's bottom is black and the stuff covering it is about 1mm high. Almost like a snow globe.

If I disassemble everything and fill it up again, just like I did the first two times, this will happen again in 2-4 months. I'm really interested in how to prevent this, seeing other people running distilled water only for ever without problems.

 

[Snorlaxxx]

i still think it is the dye breaking down.
i dont know how the masterkleer tubing is, maybe it has some plasticizer, but my money is still on the dye.
run distilled+biocide, or some silver!

I suppose it will be the only next combination to try out and what I was going to do. But after seeing this organic looking spongy stuff I thought it could be anythings fault. That's why I'm asking here for advice before I mess things up again

 

[Mag10]

What about the blocks? Why should it be their fault?
I don't even know what the stuff is. The possibility of the blocks being clogged or at least containing some of that stuff is there, but they should be easily be flushed.

Well the reason I ask is because it is possible that it could be corrosion, if you have mixed and matched different metals within your loop. Since you tested the loop without the dye it was a thought because it appeared to have a hue shortly after refilling. Keep in mind I am not ruling out the dye breaking down, which could have remnants left in your loop if you did not flush it out thoroughly, specifically the radiator.

 

[Snorlaxxx]

My rad is an Alphacool full copper, as is my gpu bock. cpu block is the EK Supremcy nickel plated. The newer ones, not the older faulty ones. The plating is only on the outside and for optical purposes, The inside is copper as well afaik.

The first time I suspected the low PH was causing corrosion with the copper, thus the copper colorisation, but seeing it happening even without the biocide seems to rule this out. Although, as I said, the PH is still on the red side with the distilled water alone. Nt sure what water to use other than distilled, which has a PH of 7-8. Tapwater does, but that brings other problems with it.

As far as flushing goes, I didn't disassemble it. I just flushed and let it ran for a while multiple times with fresh distilled water until the "orange water" was gone (99%).
Seemed clear to me. The tubing didn't show anything other then discoloration from the dye, so I ruled the algae out as well, thats why I didn't disassemble everything.

This time I either try out water + biocide for 2-3 months or until something shows up or I disassemble everything and renew the tubing. Not sure which way to go.

I need to figure out the source of this somehow.

 

[GTXJackBauer]

For one its not the blocks fault other than the user. You should know the consequences if you had read the stickies and did some research. I would shut that system down and not turn it on again till you figured out what has happened here. This could have been diverted. We only advise to use some good colored tubing with distilled water and a silver coil or some type of biocide. Not sure about the PH thing, maybe some experienced folks can add to that but obviously there is a bad reaction going on in your loop that needs to be attended too asap. If its spongy looking than it could be some type of growth. You never leave biocide out of a loop period or you're asking for trouble. When using colored liquid you will stain your equipment first of. You need to flush the system of colored liquid every 3 months tops. I am not sure what the white stuff is but it is some type of build up and you said there was a jelly like substance in the liquid. This can be a combination of plasticize among other things and growth. I am not sure if that is algae as you would expect it to have a greenish and sometimes brownish color. Your pump is probably on its last legs if you've let this go on for some time on and off.

Tear down the whole loop and read the stickies. Rinse everything and throw away the tubing. If you're lucky you might be throwing the tubing away only.

 

[Mag10]

+1 ^

Well here's my suggestion, disassemble the loop completely clean all the blocks and pay special attention to the radiator when you flush it out even if you have to flush it several times. After a good cleaning refill using Distilled+silver and see if this solves the problem.

 

[Waza]

I've been using masterkleer clearflex60 for 5+ years and have had no problem with the tubing.
Once it did build up some residue over time but that was from the anti corrosive fluid meant for cars I've been using and in all my laziness I skipped my maintenance couple times.
I'm sure it's your dye that's causing it. Try to use less of it or get colored tubing.
Dye's tend to do exactly what the picture shows.

 

[Snorlaxxx]

...if you had read the stickies and did some research...

I did several months research prior to buy my WC stuff and as far as I'm concerned I did everything right. The decision of using the Maythem dye was one I did, knowing that many users don't have problems with it. The only thing with dyes was that bad ones could clog the blocks. This isn't the case here. Even with all that thing going on my temps and fanspeed didn't chance. That's ehy I didn't notice anything at first. There were no system related issues.

We only advise to use some good colored tubing with distilled water and a silver coil or some type of biocide.

Thats what I did the first time, and the same thing happened. The bottle says 1 drop per liter and I had two drops in a little less than a liter. That should have been sufficient enough to prevent that. But it was not.

Not sure about the PH thing, maybe some experienced folks can add to that but obviously there is a bad reaction going on in your loop that needs to be attended too asap.

That's what I'm trying to do here. I think cleaning it and reflling it as I already did will not solve the problem, because I don't know what caused it.

I might be able to do some more pictures later when I opened everything up.

You never leave biocide out of a loop period or you're asking for trouble.

Many people run only distilled water and have no problems at all. Seeing how the slight acidic water should be enough against algae I tried without the biocide. Not only because of this, but because I initially thought the high acidic solution would eat my copper components up. So to prevent that I tested it without biocide.
The PH thing is an interesting thing and I hope someone can say something about that and how acidic the water is allowed to be before causing problems.

Sadly I don't have acces to silver coils here. I don't know why no one sells them, otherwise I would've use one instead of the biocide.

When using colored liquid you will stain your equipment first of.

I knew that and I don't care about the stained tubes. They get replaced anyway. The res is borosilicate glass. No staining there.

I am not sure what the white stuff is but it is some type of build up and you said there was a jelly like substance in the liquid. This can be a combination of plasticize among other things and growth. I am not sure if that is algae as you would expect it to have a greenish and sometimes brownish color.

I thought the same thing. It might be a combination between growth, discolored dye and plasticize.
The "white stuff" looks brownish, but maybe because of the dye. I will see more when I drain it.

Your pump is probably on its last legs if you've let this go on for some time on and off.

Oddly it wasnt. RPM were the same the whole time, no slowdown. I'm curious to see how the pump will look when I clean it.

Tear down the whole loop and read the stickies. Rinse everything and throw away the tubing. If you're lucky you might be throwing the tubing away only.

Will do.

One question though: What about the seals? If I open the blocks I guess I need new ones for everything. I already did some research, but the opinns differ on this. Some say never use a seal twice or you ask for leaks and some say they are made for multiple uses...

I will try to clean everything without opening the blocks first, depending on how bad it really looks.

 

[Waza]

I will try to clean everything without opening the blocks first, depending on how bad it really looks.

Open the blocks.. Your cpu block fins are probably full of that residue.

 

[dyckah]

ive opened up my blocks a few times, and i've yet to replace any of the seals, no problems for me sofar..

 

[GTXJackBauer]

I did several months research prior to buy my WC stuff and as far as I'm concerned I did everything right. The decision of using the Maythem dye was one I did, knowing that many users don't have problems with it. The only thing with dyes was that bad ones could clog the blocks. This isn't the case here. Even with all that thing going on my temps and fanspeed didn't chance. That's ehy I didn't notice anything at first. There were no system related issues.

I bet you the world your blocks and pumps are clogged with that stuff and dyes will eventually clog things up when not maintained. Assuming its a dye issue but it can be other issues as well as hardware related. (Flaking)

Those users you speak of must use biocides and clean their loops within 2-3 months each time if they had no supposed issues otherwise they aren't telling the truth. lol Any colored dye will 100% stain your water cooling components over time.

Thats what I did the first time, and the same thing happened. The bottle says 1 drop per liter and I had two drops in a little less than a liter. That should have been sufficient enough to prevent that. But it was not.

Are you talking about distilled water and biocide? Maybe you were using the wrong biocide or something might have growing or flaking or both.

That's what I'm trying to do here. I think cleaning it and reflling it as I already did will not solve the problem, because I don't know what caused it.

I might be able to do some more pictures later when I opened everything up.

Ok. Please do take pictures of all your stuff before and after. Don't skip that process.

I knew that and I don't care about the stained tubes. They get replaced anyway. The res is borosilicate glass. No staining there.

I bet you the blocks are stained. Anything brownish let alone green is never a good sign in a loop. Was this both times? It don't matter if all you did was flush the loop and not do a complete tear down since the stuff will still be in the blocks and circulate once again. I bet you it was the first time it all started. Second time didn't mater as all it did was circulate the stuff around some more.

I thought the same thing. It might be a combination between growth, discolored dye and plasticize.
The "white stuff" looks brownish, but maybe because of the dye. I will see more when I drain it.

Its quite possible but until we know whats on the inside we can't say for sure.

When you do your before pics you should add them to our collection thread of Tales of the Crypt.

Oddly it wasnt. RPM were the same the whole time, no slowdown. I'm curious to see how the pump will look when I clean it.

But you said it was making a oddly noise. Those D5s are great pumps and can go through some troubles and survive no problem. Hopefully yours will be fine when all is said and done. Take pics of that opened before and after.

One question though: What about the seals? If I open the blocks I guess I need new ones for everything. I already did some research, but the opinns differ on this. Some say never use a seal twice or you ask for leaks and some say they are made for multiple uses...

I will try to clean everything without opening the blocks first, depending on how bad it really looks.

I would advise to open the blocks and pump in this case. Only way you'll get a perfect clean setup again and start over. At least see what damage if anything has been done. I've taken apart my pumps and blocks apart quite a few times. Just make sure when putting them together you mount the seal correctly. If the seals look to be damaged than is when you replace them. By the sounds of it all it looks like you've never opened up anything so your seals should be fine.

Edit: I almost forgot, give us a list of your whole system including core components and what is used for watercooling, when the system was built and when you had first flushed it.

 

[Thekamikazepr]

That gunk might be on your blocks and pump as it is in the reservoir.

Like how cholesterol blocks your arteries.

I cannot provide details on what causes it but My friend recommended not using dye or colored liquids due to gunk build up.

I will consider looking at a different brand of water as well.

My first water was "distilled" but in reallity it had minerals since it created chlorine build up.

And once i left it sit a while and algea got build up as water was apparently leaking from reservoir. ( as water lowered the algea started to appear in reservoir since then the coil wouldnt touch it) .

I switch water brand and now its working good

 

[Snorlaxxx]

I bet you the world your blocks and pumps are clogged with that stuff and dyes will eventually clog things up when not maintained. Assuming its a dye issue but it can be other issues as well as hardware related. (Flaking)

I stripped everything down and just finished rebuilding it.
After opening thee loop things started to look not nearly as terrible as they looked on the picture. As soon as I drained the loop, most of the white stuff got flushed away with it and the res was clean again. I flushed the blocks, rad and pump multiple times with hot water and distilled water. Everything looks new again and I didn't have to open the blocks.

I let the coolant rest in a bowl and after a while it started to look like my loop did. Meaning the color flakes or whatever the particles were collected at the bottom and when I gently moved the water you could see a concentrated vail of red color.

So it seems it WAS a dye problem. Damn you Maythem!

Maybe you were using the wrong biocide or something might have growing or flaking or both.

For now I didn't put anything in my loop yet. Will refill and bleed it tomorrow.
Seeing that it wasn't an algae problem after all, I might overthink the useage of the Maythem Biocide. Maybe I try to get my hands on a silver coil.

Ok. Please do take pictures of all your stuff before and after. Don't skip that process.

I would have, if anything looked strange or messed up, but by the time I drained the loop all components looked okay and after flushing them multiple times the were as good as new. I looked inside the CPU block with a flashlight to see the pins. They seemed fine.

I bet you the blocks are stained. Anything brownish let alone green is never a good sign in a loop. Was this both times?

Thankfully there was no sign of green or brown stuff.
Yes it looked both times the same, but the brownish look must have been because of the dye and the dark look in the tube/res.
After I drained it, it looked just red with no signs of curious stuff.

But you said it was making a oddly noise. Those D5s are great pumps and can go through some troubles and survive no problem. Hopefully yours will be fine when all is said and done. Take pics of that opened before and after.

Yeah, I don't know where the sound of the pump came from. I opend and cleaned the pump. It was clean as a baby ***.
I really thought there was some huge deposit, because the pump is at the lowest point in my loop, but there was nothing.
Maybe the flow looked slow and the noise came from the decomposed color. Friction, turbulences or whatever...
Let's see what the pump does tomorrow.
And yes, the D5 is usually dead silent and reliable as hell. That's why I bought it in the first place

Edit: I almost forgot, give us a list of your whole system including core components and what is used for watercooling, when the system was built and when you had first flushed it.

Alphacool 480 rad, EK Supremacy nickel, Universal GPU block, aquacomputer Res and pumptop, alphacool D5, Aquaero 5, Corsair fans, Masterkleer tubing, compression fittings. Everything packed nicely in an Obsidian 900D
Built 6 Months ago, flushed two months ago the first time.


Somewhere was a review regarding distilled water and biocides. Don't know who did it, but the result was that PT Nuke / Maythem Biocide were highly acidic and the water turned red like vinegar over time. Didn't look too healthy. I found that review after I flusht my loop for the first time, thinking I had a coolant problem. That's why I skipped the biocide that time.
Now I don't know. For now it seamed to be okay without it, but its only been two months so far. I'm not a huge fan of stripping my loop down every two to four months, so the use of some biocide might make sens, I don't know.

Anyone running his loop only on distilled water?
How about Maythem biocide experiences? (Supposedly the same as PT Nuke)
Still worried about the PH.

I measured the drained coolant and it had a PH of 6. Though not on the preferred side, it is acceptable. That's without biocide.


EDIT: found the review about the PH
http://www.overclock.net/t/1289554/pt-nuke-distilled-water-acid