Nvidia bullying monitor manufacturers?

[trents]

Maybe others can understand this guy better than I. Very thick accent (Aussie?).

I think he is making the point that Nvidia is trying to obscure the Freesync compatiblity of many or most displays produced today by using their market clout to force display makers and/or vendors (like Amazon) to emphasize gsync in their product packaging and advertising and at the same time, hide the freesync compatiblity.

Here is a forum snippet addressing the same issue:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AMD_Stock/comments/dgvifd

This is all smoke and mirrors as I understand it and does not represent any actual changes in hardware compatibility with regards to the displays themselves. Is my understanding correct?

 

[bigtallanddopey]

Maybe others can understand this guy better than I. Very thick accent (Aussie?).

He is Scottish. And trust me he does not have a thick Scottish accent, I know a few people that it’s like listening to another language.

As for the vid I thought it was quite interesting. FreeSync technology is AMD FreeSync technology. And yet Nvidia somehow seem to have had AMD removed from all marketing material and in most cases FreeSync has also been removed.

You can see the difference if you were to look on Amazon at an LG monitor with FreeSync. In the title it says AMD Radeon FreeSync 2 on the GK850F.

Where as something like the Asus VG27AQ now actually says G-sync in the title. Where as it is actually a g-sync compatible monitor that uses FreeSync.

It’s quite a sneaky move if you ask me. G-sync in many ways was failing because the extra premium on the monitors meant people weren’t buying them as much. An extra 20% price premium couldn’t be justified. Yet they manage to keep the G-sync name and branding in the public eye buy literally throwing money at it and essentially removing the designers/owners name on the process

 

[trents]

He is Scottish. And trust me he does not have a thick Scottish accent, I know a few people that it’s like listening to another language.

As for the vid I thought it was quite interesting. FreeSync technology is AMD FreeSync technology. And yet Nvidia somehow seem to have had AMD removed from all marketing material and in most cases FreeSync has also been removed.

You can see the difference if you were to look on Amazon at an LG monitor with FreeSync. In the title it says AMD Radeon FreeSync 2 on the GK850F.

Where as something like the Asus VG27AQ now actually says G-sync in the title. Where as it is actually a g-sync compatible monitor that uses FreeSync.

It’s quite a sneaky move if you ask me. G-sync in many ways was failing because the extra premium on the monitors meant people weren’t buying them as much. An extra 20% price premium couldn’t be justified. Yet they manage to keep the G-sync name and branding in the public eye buy literally throwing money at it and essentially removing the designers/owners name on the process

You mean made to be no longer compatible with Freesync? That's the part I'm not clear on. It's one thing to nix the technology reference but still another to nix the technology itself.

 

[Alaric]

nVidia tried changing the drivers to allow non G-Sync monitors to be synced with some cards (Pascal and Turing, I think), but that had limited success-to the point that it was more public relations than substance. Team Green is kind of like the Intel of the bad (Athlon) old days. Their tactics are similar and Huang tends to be a jerk, but I don't think AMD is going away in the graphics space. Huang has had a few missteps lately and I see this as a continuation of that. It's what he does and I don't expect that to change as long as he's at the helm there.

 

[trents]

nVidia tried changing the drivers to allow non G-Sync monitors to be synced with some cards (Pascal and Turing, I think), but that had limited success-to the point that it was more public relations than substance. Team Green is kind of like the Intel of the bad (Athlon) old days. Their tactics are similar and Huang tends to be a jerk, but I don't think AMD is going away in the graphics space. Huang has had a few missteps lately and I see this as a continuation of that. It's what he does and I don't expect that to change as long as he's at the helm there.

So a component of this is actually inconsistent compatibility of Nvidia GPUs with Freesync. But it also seems like an excuse to bully. Nvidia, instead of working on improving the drivers to make them more compatible with Freesync, took a step backward and is trying to drive AMD out of the market. Am I hitting the mark here?

 

[wingman99]

My G-sync compatible monitor works perfectly with Nvidia.

 

[Alaric]

So a component of this is actually inconsistent compatibility of Nvidia GPUs with Freesync. But it also seems like an excuse to bully. Nvidia, instead of working on improving the drivers to make them more compatible with Freesync, took a step backward and is trying to drive AMD out of the market. Am I hitting the mark here?

No, they allowed cards to try to sync with monitors that don't have the G-Sync gizmo in them. It doesn't work with many monitors, though. I think there's a list of the ones they "certified" on their website. The driver change allows the card to try to match the refresh rate of the display, whereas the G-Sync monitor can also change the display's refresh rate.

From all I've heard G-Sync works very well. The issue is are the benefits worth the high premium price tag? AMD's Freesync is open source so it adds much less to the cost than the parts and licensing from nVidia.

 

[bigtallanddopey]

No, they allowed cards to try to sync with monitors that don't have the G-Sync gizmo in them. It doesn't work with many monitors, though. I think there's a list of the ones they "certified" on their website. The driver change allows the card to try to match the refresh rate of the display, whereas the G-Sync monitor can also change the display's refresh rate.

This is where nvidia have been clever or really sneaky. If you look at the list of compatible or “certified” they mostly comprise of Asus and Acer monitors. There are some gigabyte, LG and HP ones but not as many. If you look at the descriptions on amazon of the Asus and Acer you will see nvidia branding all over the monitors and saying G-sync.

But the main point is that actually now the drivers have been changed all FreeSync monitors will work with nvidia gpus. However the certified list seems to be limited to only manufacturers who have been paid or forced to use the nvidia G-Sync branding.

 

[bigtallanddopey]

You mean made to be no longer compatible with Freesync? That's the part I'm not clear on. It's one thing to nix the technology reference but still another to nix the technology itself.

Could read the yellow too well.

Yeh it is just the reference. As far as I can tell they cannot simply remove the tech. Not without then giving away the G-Sync tech for free or cheaper to replace it.

 

[trents]

So bigtallandopey your saying nvidia is strong arming some monitor manufacturers like Acer and Asus to discontinue offering freesync models?

 

[bigtallanddopey]

Strong arming them to discontinue offering models with the FreeSync name by changing the description and branding. Not actually stopping to sell the models themselves.

In the future will we see those companies only offering variable refresh rate monitors using g-sync technology and not FreeSync. Who knows.

 

[mackerel]

Without watching the video, if it is who I think it is, I'm not missing anything...

Everyone: I wish nvidia would support freesync
nvidia (eventually): ok, it's enabled but only automatic enabled for certified compatible displays. You can enable at your own risk otherwise.

FreeSync is the AMD brand for whatever the underlying generic thing is called (VESA adaptive sync?). Of course nvidia isn't going to reference it at all. What nvidia have done is test every VRR monitor they can get their hands on. Those they consider as good as native designed-for G-sync are whitelisted and "just work". Monitor manufacturers who have displays meeting this requirement will probably want to advertise such as a value add feature.

I guess the only point is, how do the manufacturers also denote they're also Freesync compatible... it is probably the best scenario for display manufacturers to meet the nvidia conditions so they work well with both. If nvidia are preventing the advertising of freesync in some way, that would be bad.

BTW there's a Linus Tech Tips video where he toured nvidia's monitor testing facility. It was a missed opportunity on nvidia's part as before that video I never knew that G-sync wasn't just about the variable refresh, but also demands the monitor perform at a certain level in many areas. G-sync is selling you a performance level, whereas freesync can be applied to any old piece of junk.

 

[EarthDog]

G-sync is selling you a performance level, whereas freesync can be applied to any old piece of junk.

This.

Not all Freesync monitors are even capable of achieving the standards required to be 'gsync compatible'. There isn't a conspiracy of working with specific/certain partners, its simply that the other monitors do not qualify.

I really thought we went over this already in another thread... maybe it was another site... haha! But yeah, I'd rather have Nvidia be very selective and only certify those that can bring the best 'gsync' experience to the user than to let it go and certify shoeboxes.

 

[petteyg359]

G-sync is selling you a performance level, whereas freesync can be applied to any old piece of junk.

This. Not all Freesync monitors are even capable of achieving the standards required to be 'gsync compatible'.

If people are seriously buying monitors because they have one word on them and ignoring the listed specs, people deserve to end up with an "old piece of junk". nVidia never had a valid reason to not support FreeSync displays, given FreeSync is just AMD's branding requiring that labeled displays support the VESA standard (and for FreeSync2 has a few more requirements). If nVidia is paying to have FreeSync labels removed, that's BS, because "GSync" may be proprietary hardware with no guarantee of working with AMD GPUs. Freesync as a label is guaranteed to work with both (provided nVidia doesn't spew bull**** "reasons" for not implementing the VESA standard). Not that I see any evidence of the label being removed... I just went through the list on monitors on Acer's site and FreeSync is clearly listed for all of the ones that have it. No need to go digging to find it.

 

[trents]

But from what I read, though freesync is still listed in the specs on the Acer and Asus websites, Nvidia has made under the table arrangements with big retailers like Amazon to have freesync removed from those retailer's website specs for most models produced by those companies, thus unfairly promoting their (Nvidia's) VRR over AMD's.

 

[maxfly]

im trying to figure out what it is were talking about here...is it,
nvidias gsync monitors arent being marketed with the new addition of async, freesync or freesync2 compatibility in the description so as to further promote gsync? or is it that nvidia is pressuring monitor manufacturers not to include async, freesync or freesync2 on ANY monitors?

 

[EarthDog]

It's the fact that Freesync is seemingly being washed out in specs on monitors that are certified gsync compatible (sites like amazon, etc).

I could only stomach around 5 mins of the video (between that accent and some of other 'theories' he isn't on my list of YTs to watch), so not sure what else he was trying to go on abut for the rest of the 15 mins...

Nvidia has made under the table arrangements with big retailers like Amazon

Has this been confirmed? Or are we(the video) using correlation for causation?

 

[Zerileous]

so the difference is "gsync" vs "gsync compatible". The former still have and extra piece of hardware which is proprietary tech and by the time it goes through nVidia testing and licensing winds up costing the consumer about $100 (at least in Fall 2018 prices, I haven't really looked since).

Freesync is an open source (IIRC) standard supported by AMD to accomplish a similar thing, but it's all in the standard VESA adaptive sync and software/drivers. So a "Freesync" monitor the manufacturer only has to support the VESA standard and software does the rest (vs extra hardware with actual gsync).

In the last year, nVidia has added the code to support Freesync to their drivers (since after all it's open source). The part I'm not clear on, is if it can actually be enabled on *any* Freesync monitor, or only supported ones. nVidia also released a list of "Gsync compatible" monitors. These are just Freesync monitors that passed nVidia testing and supposed to work well with nVidia cards using the Freesync protocol.

The problem is these monitors are now appearing without any "AMD" or "Freesync" marketing instead only showing "nVidia Gsync Compatible" marketing. In a time when AMD and nVidia cards are competitive with each other, buyers could be deceived after shopping for monitors and seeing leading panels that are also a good deal appear to only support nVidia cards for sync technology.

My questions are as follows: Why is the "AMD Freesync" not displayed along side the "nVidia Gsync Compatible" marketing? If I was selling a product, I would want it to appeal to the largest audience possible, in this case both AMD and nVidia customers. I would want to scream to the hills, "if you buy this panel you can upgrade your card to whatever brand you like, and it will just work!" But I don't have a degree in marketing, and maybe the manufacturers of the panel see things differently and chose to remove the "AMD Freesync" language from the listing. If so, then I can't really complain. But if they were somehow coerced into removing it, then that is anti-competitive and wrong.

Second question: Do the panel manufacturers need to pay for the "gsync compatible" testing or the use of the marketing language? Is this a licensing issue? In that case how is nVidia charging to license compatibility with open source software that was developed by their competition (again going on memory here). If so that also seems wrong.

So the question is really, why is "AMD Freesync" not showing up along side the "nVidia gsync compatible" and is it because nVidia being evil or not?

Before this one of the main reason to buy AMD for an new system, is if you wanted sync technology in a completely new system, the actual monitor+GPU package would be about $100 cheaper for AMD card + Freesync vs nVidia card + Gsync. Or in other words, for the same budget and similar panel specs, AMD cards had an effective price advantage of $100 since it wasn't going to a GSync monitor. If a $400 nVidia card has to compete against a $500 AMD card that is going to be a losing battle. At least that was my reasoning and why I ended up purchasing a Vega64 instead of a 2070 (also it was only $400 for black Friday ish sales while the 2070 only had a small discount).

 

[wingman99]

I called ASUS and asked if ASUS VG279Q 27" 1920x1080p 144Hz IPS panel was G-sync compatible because it was not listed as G-sync compatible and ASUS said yes it will work. My FreeSync monitor with default Nvidia drivers was enabled automatically, just said it was not validated by Nvidia. It's just like memory companies with QVL. So with monitors for Gsync compatible not validated pick a newly released brand you trust like ASUS, LG, DELL.


I'm thinking of purchasing the New Alienware 27 Gaming Monitor - AW2720HF 240Hz IPS panel 1920x1080p. I contacted dell and they said the FreeSync is G-sync compatible even though it is not listed on they website.

 

[EarthDog]

It's just like memory companies with QVL. . So with monitors for Gsync compatible not validated pick a newly released brand you trust like ASUS, LG, DELL.

I would stick with NVIDIA's list, honestly. You'll have more bad luck 'trying' this than you will with memory on the QVL.

I'm sure there will be cases like yours, but, I wouldn't bet on it to the point of ignoring the list and getting and FS monitor 'from a trusted brand' as the only barometer.