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Overclocking Sandbox: Tbred B DLT3C 1700+ and Beyond

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The last time I requested it, it hadn't been yet.

My PMs to the area mods went unanswered in the recent past.

This thread doesn't appear to be stickied in the CPUs or AMD CPUs area. Where is it stickied? Or did it get unstickied so soon?
 
It's in the AMD FAQ here:
A great thread on overclocking experiences and detailed information.

Sorry for my excessive sarcasm. I was irate that night, namely because of all the Thanksgiving specials I missed out on. :p

It might not be clearly yelling its title, but it's in there, as anyone who reads them on a fairly regular basis would know...
 
So it's not really stickied but referanced to in another sticky. Not the same but better than nothing at all.

I don't ever read ALL the stickies, but only ones that have specific info I'm searching for or importaint forum announcements.

BTW if anyone takes the time to save all the info in this thread, including other thread referances, it would be a book sized document well worth the effort to save and study.
 
I was aware that it was linked up in the AMD FAQ sticky, but there really should be a more "in-depth" sticky, or even just more links inside the AMD FAQ, that link up to the many specific articles that are witihin this thread.

This thread is 18 pages long.

If I was a beginner, and completely unexperienced, I wouldn't look twice at this as a whole, due to it's length, and the detail within the articles. If the individual articles were made easily accessible to me, I would browse the ones of interest and skip the more detailed stuff untill I knew enough about other things to understand, and apply the more in-depth articles.

If this entire thread was stickied, I am sure that hitechjb1 would have no qualms about editing in a "table of contents".
 
Thanks for the feedback and interest in the thread.

All the articles have been linked and sectioned in the first post of this thread. Just all the links themselves are pretty long and would be better to be broken into multiple posts, each of which can be a Chapter or a Section.

I can also create another thread to put all the links to the articles, ..., there, with some reorganization if needed, ... I can give the new thread a new name, like analysis, science of overclocking, ..., and we can continue developing new materials there.

The original intent of this thread was for posting some overclocking results when I was first overclocking a 1700+, but as things moved along and have to be explained, I put them into a single place, and the thread has grown into the current state, ....

Comments and suggestions are welcome, ...


Setup

Summary for overclocking CPU and FSB (page 3)

Vcore mod for higher Vcore (using fix resistor) (page 2)

9500np to 9700 Softmod and 3D Mark w/ Tbred B 1700+ DLT3C (page 7)

NF7-S rev 2.0 FSB_Sense 166 and 200 mod (from 133) test results (page 12)
NF7-S rev 2.0 FSB_Sense 166 and 200 mod (from 133) test results (part 2) (page 12)

Summary on overclocking the NF7-S rev 2.0 (with Tbred B 1700+ DLT3C and ...) (page 15)


Basics

Relationship of clock, die temperature and Vcore (update)
- What is the active power of a CPU at frequency f and voltage V
- How to estimate CPU static and active power
- Effect of die temperature on CPU clock frequency at a given Vcore
(page 13)

Relationship of clock, die temperature and Vcore
What is the active power of a CPU at frequency f and voltage V
How to estimate CPU static and active power
(page 2)

Effect of overclocking on CPU active power and current

What is the active power of a CPU at frequency f and voltage V

How many transistors, wires and capactors are there inside a CPU (page 13)

What are the value of C and R of a CPU for power estimation (page 14)

What is channel length of a MOS transistor (page 14)

Silicon on insulator (SOI), with introduction to bulk CMOS

Electromigration: Physics, effect of current density and temperature, testing, ...
http://www.eas.asu.edu/~schroder/Electromigration.pdf
http://www.cadence.com/whitepapers/electromigration.html
http://www.intel.com/technology/itj/q31998/articles/art_2.htm


General techniques

How to interpret Sandra CPU benchmark, IPC and comparing with P4 (page 2)

Eliminating uncertainties for better overclocking (page 7)

Some numbers to determine max CPU overclocking frequency - Vcore vs temperature,
When do the CPU's slow down?
(page 13)
Explanation (page 13)

Overclocking limit and cooling cost for different types of overclocking (page 13)

Overclocking frequency-Vcore break-even point for Tbred B/Barton (page 15)

General rules on voltage and temperature for CPU overclocking (page 16)

How to determine "highest" voltage and temperature for CPU overclocking (page 16)

Question: How much power is increased ...

how many watts does your cpu take up?

What is the probability of achieving certain level of overclocking (page 16)

What is CPU stability (page 18)


Tbred B 1700+ DLT3C, Barton related

Why the 1700+ can run so fast at low Vcore? (page 2)

Lower voltage, shorter transistor channel length, lower transistor threshold voltage and Tbred B 1700+/1800+DLT3C (page 15)

What are the differences between Palomino, Tbred A and Tbred B/Barton? (page 1)

Power of Tbred B 1700+ DLT3C at 2.5GHz 1.9V (page 3)

Comparing power of Barton w/ 1700+ DLT3C (page 3)

Comparing Tbred B 1700+/1800+ DLT3C and Barton 2500+ overclocking performance, power and temperature (page 14)

What happens to programs running in CPU with smaller and bigger L2 cache (page 17)

FSB_Sense mod to set Tbred B default FSB from 133 to 166 (page 12)
FSB_Sense mod to set Tbred B default FSB from 133 to 200 (page 12)

Tbred B and Barton rated voltage, frequency, power, current, and capacitance, resistance model (page 14)

Comparing power, current, temperature of various Tbred B and Barton overclocked to 2.5 GHz (page 14)

Overclocking characteristic (voltage, frequency, power, current, temperature) of a Tbred B 1700+ DLT3C (page 14)

Overclocking characteristic (voltage, frequency, power, current, temperature) of Tred B 1700+ DLT3C and a Barton 2500+ (page 14)

Overclocking characteristic (voltage, frequency, power, current, temperature) of a Tbred B 1700+ DLT3C for faster, slower chips (page 14)

Overclocking characteristic (voltage, frequency, power, current, temperature) of a Tbred B 1700+ DLT3C with different coolings (C/W) (page 14)

Impact of Tbred B 1700+/1800+ DLT3C or Barton 2500+ w/ locked multiplier on overclocking (page 18)


Memory

Links to various posts on memory, FSB and CPU overclocking

RAS, CAS Timing and BIOS Memory Setting

Single Channel vs Dual Channel DDR Memory

Overclocking memory module(s) vs dual channel

256MB vs 512 MB vs 1GB, 1 module vs 2 modules

Dual Channel Memory (1 vs 2 sticks, sync vs async)

Dual Channel, Nforce2, P4 and AMD FSB

Some Benchmarks of CAS Latency on Overall Performance

Different RAS/CAS timing on memory latency (estimate)

What is cycle time and frequency

Frequency, clock, period of synchronous operations, latency

Latency

Analogy on Bus Speed, Bandwidth and Latency

Analogy for FSB, CAS2, CAS3 latency and bandwidth for DRAM memory

Memory bandwidth efficiency


Vcore

Max Vcore for Tbred B and Barton (page 5)

How much voltage can be applied to a CPU (page 5)

Effect of high Vcore and electromigration on CPU failure time (page 15)

Effect of high Vcore and electromigration on expected failure time for Tbred B/Barton (page 15)

What could damage a chip/CPU permanently? (page 15)


Air Cooling

Air cooling setup (page 2)

Temperature measurement and importance of HSF (page 5)

Impact of higher ambient temperature on CPU clock frequency (page 6)

Comparing some HSF's on CPU overclock frequency on air (page 6)

Comparing different HSF's and impact of ambient temperature on max CPU frequency (HSF 0.3 C/W) (page 6)

Comparing different HSF's and impact of ambient temperature on max CPU frequency (HSF 0.36 C/W) (page 7)

Ambient temperature from air cooling to water cooling (page 7)

Effect of lowering ambient air temperature on CPU overclocking (page 7)

PSU intake fan location & AMD Athlon System Cooling Guidelines (page 7)

SK7 or SK800?

Testing 4 fans w/ a SLK-947U on a Tbred B 1700+ DLT3C (page 16)

Comparing Tornado 80mm, Tornado 92mm and TT SFII (second test data) (page 17)


Power and current estimate, PSU requirements

What size PSU do I need? (page 6)

Some thoughts on choosing PSU for overclocking recent motherboard, CPU, GPU, ... (page 8)

Some test results on PSU with different ratings for overclocking (page 8)

Are the 9700 and 9800 using 5V for GPU Vcore? (page 14)

Which PSU line does AMD CPU run on (page 14)

On PSU and Fortron 530W testing (page 5)

Does this sound like a PSU problem?


Some useful links for AMD and Intel CPU's:

AMD Athlon? XP Processor Tech Docs

Data sheet for AMD Model 10 with 256 KB L2 Cache

Data sheet for AMD Model 10 (Barton)

Data sheet for AMD Model 8 (Tbred)

Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor

Data sheet for Intel P4 (1.4 - 2 GHz, 400 MHz system bus)

Data sheet for Intel P4 (2 - 3.2 GHz, HT, 533/800 MHz system bus)
 
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hitechjb1,

If you're going to reoganize it in chapters anyway, why not make a Word.doc version too with your embeded graphics and they could be a series of OC.com front page articles. Eventhough the info started out XP1700 specific, there is so much that applies to the general theory and priciples of overclocking that it would be highly useful for all CPUs.
 
Man, this is turning into a lot of work for poor Hitechjb1 ;)

There really isn't any point in starting a new thread, this thread may as well just get a name edit (if it is possible), and continue in it's current form.

The most difficult part for something this size is organizing it to be navigatable, which, to an extent, has already happened. I think that this simply needs to be made more easily seen by beginners who don't know what to look for. Hitechjb1, you have dine a terrif job here, I wouldn't go wasting time changing it all around ;)
 
Maybe we can get just the master index posted as a sticky so it will be accessable no matter how far it falls down the pages.
 
^
| Agreed with all the above. The contents of this thread most definitely deserve to be published. Some post pruning may be in order as well.

@codeman- Top view of the processor, or a diagram of the socket; correct.
 
STICKY!

Superb job hitechjb, and I agree that there's too much valuable info in this thread for newbs (and pros) not to have easy access to. I do agree that it does need some pruning though.
 
Great stuff - highly informative :)

Knock this thread back up to the top where it belongs ;)

In summary,
- Vcore primarily determines the ideal CPU max overclocking frequency, based on transistor current driving ability, loading, and delay of the slowest pair of latches in a chip.

How does one go about roughly determining the "transistor current driving ability, loading, and delay of the slowest pair of latches in a chip" of any given processor? I know that with all the factors involved it would probably be near impossible.

Is this the unique attribute which makes one processor a unusually good overclocking chip, and another of the same week and stepping a cludge?

EDIT: Guatam, how did your chip die? I just saw your new sig, that's a real blow, I'm sorry to see it :(. I feel your pain man.
 
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Overclocking a mobile Barton 2400+ to 2.6/2.7+ GHz on air

Picked up a mobile barton 2400+ ($77) from newegg, AQYFA 0343 WPFW, kind of an unknown stepping, not the best known stepping such as IQYFA 0343 MPMW.

Managed to run it at high voltage of 2.22 V to get to 2.79 GHz.
SLK-947U and 80mm Tornado (w/ fan speed control).
MB is NF7-S rev 2.0.
512 MB x 2 PC 3500.

Prime stable at 2.65 GHz, 2.15V, 48/18 C.
I think that is about it for this particular chip and stepping.

Will eventually run it 24/7 at 2.6+ GHz, 220+ FSB, with SLK-947U and 80mm Tornado w/ fan speed control.

From the Sisoft Dhyrstone Integer and Whetstone Floating Point benchmark,
it scores 7%+ higher than a P4C 3.2 GHz w/ 2 SMT, for both integer and floating point (w/o SSE2).

Since the Dhrystone IPC ratio for XP to P4C (w/ 2 SMT) is about 1.22:1,
so a 2.79 GHz Barton would perform about the same as a 3.4 GHz P4 in integer arithmetic.



At 2.71 GHz, 2.15 V, the temperature at light to medium high load is 33 - 45 C,
with winter CPU ambient temperature around 15 - 18 C,
80 mm Tornado between 3000-4000 rpm.

During full Prime95, load temperature would go up as high as 48 C with system ambient around 18 C (also winter room temperature), with the 80 mm Tornado at full rpm.
The 30 C temperature difference would translate into about 130 W power dissipation with a SLK-947 type of HS.
To get it stable under Prime95, preferred temperature is under 45 C, with 15 C ambient temp (winter).

At around 48 C, the heat related instability perturbation would limit further higher overclocking beyond 2.7 GHz at full load,
unless better cooling is incorporated.


stable_frequency = max_frequency - temp_sensitive_frequency_margin

Max_frequency is determined by Vcore, ....

If one could reduce the temperature related frequency margin by super cooling, then one could have the stable frequency approaching the max ideal frequency of the CPU at a given Vcore and temperature.


barton2400xpm_aqyfa_0343_wpfw_2784_sisoft.JPG


barton2400xpm_225x12_sandra_cpu.JPG
 
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