Question on Swiftech Apogee Pump/Block Combo

[Neco]

Hi guys,

I know I haven't posted here in ages.. W/C has always been cost prohibitive for me.. But after a few years out of action I may be getting back in.

I really can't afford to piece a setup together myself, so I have spent a lot of time researching kits.. Even considered a TT Big Water for a while, but the build quality scared me off (reviews of temps didn't seem that bad!)

Right now I am looking at the Swiftech H20-220 Compact, from Newegg for $139 +shipping. It looks like a really good, solid kit overall and has only a few negative reviews.. But they do concern leaking.

I admit the idea that there is plastic in a few vital areas of the kit makes me nervous.. However I am more concerned over the Apogee pump..

It seems prone to either over-tightening creating leaks, or under-tightening (over-corrective measure for the previous problem??) resulting in virtually no effective o-ring seal.

inspecting the kit when I get it will be easy of course, when looking for under-tightening.. But I'm concerned about over-tightening damage.. Would leak-causing damage be easy to spot in that case? Also how long has this pump been available? I'm wondering if it may be a non-issue now, and Swiftech has the manufacturing bugs and Q/A worked out.

Swiftech is a great company, but it will be my first purchase from them, so naturally I'm just a little nervous about what I'm getting into..

I know we all used to laugh at the idea of pre-fab kits, but it seems things have changed over the years, which is a good thing I think.. I wouldn't be able to afford to do this otherwise..

It's going onto a C2D 2.4Ghz Conroe btw .. I have it up to 60C @ 2.6 (stock voltage) full load with the crappy Intel HSF/TIM so I fully expect and will be happy with hitting 3Ghz on water. Not looking for uber e-peen results, just want to quiet my rig down a bit and put off having to upgrade for maybe another year or so.. (want to save up for I7 of course). Will also likely be sticking a 1GB 4870 in after money recovers from this purchase, or maybe even a 1GB, 1Ghz 4890 from Sapphire if I can sit on my cash long enough Hopefully will get another year and a half out of this rig with these two upgrades

Btw.. If anyone owns the H20-220 Compact already, how will it handle additional blocks? Perhaps some mobo and GPU blocks down the road if I find GPU too noisy for me, and the mobo for the hell of it.. Radiator seems capable @ 120mm x 2 width? Thinking the pump/block may need to be replaced though. I've seen some weird specs on pumps these days in multi-block systems? Seems like its not necesarry about big flow-rate anymore, or perhaps I've been out of the scene for too long

By the way.. the liquid they include w/the kit.. Its supposed to be mixed with Distilled Water, but given the problems with premixes I've seen (just saw the Fesser BLUE link/thread a bit ago too) would this stuff likely cause any problems? Otherwise I was just gonna go the usual Distilled / 10% Anti-Freeze. I've still got my bottle of Water Wetter sitting around, begging for attention, lol.. But given the reaction it had with my last D-Tek radiator (something to do with the cleaning agent he used I think?) I'm not too keen on switching away from Distilled + Anti-Freeze

 

[Spawn-Inc]

i've never heard of leaking issues with the pump/block combo accept for one case where the person ordered from newegg and it seems newegg sent him a defective one.

it's a good kit and can be transformed into a good setup by buying a new cpu block and a pump top for the bottom half of the pump.


so on that note i wouldn't buy from the egg. grab it from petras or jabtech.

as far as coolant distilled water and pt nuke works great. if you want colour go with coloured tubing first, then if thats not good enough i like and use feser View uv dye.

i think that answers most of what you asked.

 

[Conumdrum]

You really don't need any mobo blocks, good air flow is enuff for your setup. You could always get a spot fan for inside the case to blow on the NB when you overclock. Mobo blocks are also mobo specific, so just about any block you buy will be outdated for your next mobo.

I really don't think adding a hot 4870/90 will make the loop and CPU temps very unhappy. The rad is only a 120x2. but you could add the GPU but expect your CPU temps to be hotter, just so ya know.

Once you move to an i7 etc someday you'll probably only keep the rad, maybe. the pump is worth keeping but you'll have to buy parts for it, and it's only a MCP350, not the better MCP355.

It's a good starter for sure. Don't worry about leaks, very very rare on that kit. You don't need water wetter, it's old school, stinks, and does absolutly nothing for your loop or temps. Distilled and petras PHN Nuke. Shipped it's under $5 ground mail USPS and will last for many refills, you only need 2 drops for your small loop.

 

[Neco]

Cool thanks for the feedback.. I don't necesarrily think buying from Newegg is going to guarantee me higher risk of defective kit though, it comes boxed from Swiftech and just sits on a shelf in a warehouse after all. And yeah I picked up the leak stories from the product reviews.. But honestly, they have the best price.. I could have it overnighted to my door (which I may do) and still come out cheaper then just the kit itself at other stores.

I've RMA'd with Newegg before though, so its not like I think they would screw me
Also, I was thinking of buying it sooner, then I guess they ran out or something as the product page was deactivated, but now it can be purchased again, so maybe they got a fresh restock too.

I will look into the PHN nuke also.

 

[hokiealumnus]

Just checked and they're out of stock. If you're in a hurry, Petras or Jab-Tech might be your best bet.

 

[Neco]

Well that's interesting..

I hope everything is OK with my order, as it would appear if it goes through (it was charged) that I got the last one in stock.

I picked up a new tube of Ceramique and the cleaning stuff from AS as well. I know the TIM will be a PITA to get off the CPU when the time comes..

edit: and just picked up some PHN Nuke from Petras for just under $5 First Class Mail.. Can't imagine running the loop for a day or two without it would be much of a problem?

 

[Neco]

I just checked my status on Newegg. My order has shipped

There were no notes, etc about anything not being included, so I guess I got the LAST one in stock

Btw.. is there any realistic solution to leaving my rig open to a future GPU block? Something I could tie into the system and then cap off, until I can add on an additional block? I just don't wanna get all hunky-dory and then a month or so later have to drain it and take it all apart I guess.. It depends on how loud the GPU I buy will be.. probably gonna be 4870 or 4890 1GB.. Their prices are dropping significantly.


No plans on OC'ing really at this time, I just might wanna add it to the loop for noise reduction.. Unless there are good low-noise coolers at a competitive price vs buying a GPU block? The last one I had was a Zalman heatpipe on my Ti4200 which seemed to just barely keep it good.. I still had artifacts at on low fan speed @ stock on that card (was the ABIT OTES model, was pre-oc'ed also)if ambient/case temps got too high.. Just don't want a repeat of that if I can help it.

 

[QuietIce]

As long as you're not going with a full cover block for the GPU I don't see a problem with adding it into the loop. Your temps won't be stellar with just a 220 rad but it doesn't look like you need great temps anyway since you're not going to OC it to death.

I can't think of any good way to leave something hanging that would attach to the GPU block - you really need to re-route the tubing when you add another block. But it shouldn't be that much trouble adding in the GPU after the fact - just be sure to leak test with the system off after you make the new tubing runs. In the mean time you can just run distilled water for a month - but don't let it go much longer than that ...

 

[Neco]

Yeah I'm probably gonna end up not too worried about it in the end.

If I need to add a block, I'll add it. Or maybe do a second loop or something if I can get away with a 120mm RAD for just a GPU and its a bit cheaper. I'll probably end up looking into passive cooling solutions, but I guess it will depend on what GPU I end up with..

I'm still hoping that within a month, the prices on a GTX 280 will have dropped (reDICULOUS compared to ATI prices) because I really don't want to lose my CUDA functionality for encoding and stuff and the PhysX is OK too I guess. But not at the prices they want, and a 260 or 275 just isn't enough of a justifiable upgrade to me.

Probably unrealistic for me at this point, but I think it would be interesting to mod my case doors for a 240mm in and out or something like that.. Then whatever GPU I got I could ensure it could withstand a low fan speed or something, since there would be lots of air moving thru..

Actually I wondered with the bigger fans coming out these days when we will see raidators designed for them. Leaves a lot of possibility for easy side panel mounts (I know traditionally I almost never take off the right-hand side panel) and with bigger fans abel to get away with turning slower that might be awesome. I like the idea of mounting a 240mm RAD/FAN set to one of my panels


But a somewhat more serious question.. I've heard Swiftech only recommends Veritcal mounting of the radiator in this kit.. For reasons of keeping air from getting trapped in it I guess.. But if its sealed and fully bled, would that truly matter? I have considered doing a horizontal mount on the top of my case, since the radbox would provide a nice mounting surface with minimal tearing up of the case, and allow airflow to come in under the unit and keep the supply fresh..

I have concerns about doing the back side mounting and access to my PCI slots / DVI plug, etc.. and also with a GPU pushing air out of the back, as well as a PSU I have concerns about the air temp and possibly feeding it warm air.. Even if it HAS to be Vertical though, I think mounting it to the right-side panel of the case might work out well, again because of the stand-off mounting system.

Whatever I do I want to avoid feeding it warm air, and avoid having to cut a 120mm or larger blowhole in any part of the case.. Mounting it to the top or side panel would only require me drilling holes for the screws of the stand-off mounts. Although I've never had to do that and I don't have a tapping tool, etc. Maybe securing with washer/nut on the inside would be OK?

I guess I'll figure it out once it arrives today, and I get everything taken apart and cleaned up (good god its dusty in there). Also, I deffo wouldn't run straight water for more than a week max.. Just hoping I can do it long enough and then my PHN Nuke from Petras will be here by Tues or Wed. Add a few drops into the loop and hopefully that'll be it, no worries about anything growing/rusting and hopefully no killed off stuff from the running it without any protection.

 

[QuietIce]

That rad is a combination rad/res so I suspect the main reason they suggest a vertical mount is because of the cap on the bottom where you add fluid. Kinda' hard to use it if the rad's mounted horizontally ...

 

[Neco]

Well yes, but the radiator is attached to the radbox via some screws.. So all you'd have to do is detach it from the radbox temporarily to do any filling/bleeding operations..

I've decided as long as there are no clearance issues with my cables in the rear, I will give it a go with the suggested mounting setup, however. I'm wondering if I will internally lose my 120mm in the back where the standoffs need to steal the mounting holes from though.. Unless the screws are long enough that I can simply attach the fan that way.. The only concern is my case (Antec) has these fan mounting contraptions (I'm sure you guys know what I mean.. the purple brackets seen on some cases) so maybe I'll have to get rid of that on the rear.


My biggest concern now that I've opened my case, is motherboard clearance for mounting the block.. I have a Gigabyte P35-DS3R and there is a heatsink very close to the edge of the Intel HSF unit. As well as some other stuff in the vicinity.. hope I don't end up with a weird or unrecommended pump inlet orientation, or have problems getting it on the board at all

 

[Neco]

Well... it was bound to happen to me.. I attract all the bad luck in the world..

Of course I get a defective unit...sigh. I was a little suspicious of the INLET assembly as the base where the barb comes out of the block had that "strained plastic look" where its not the same color as the rest of the "black" and more of a greyish color.. I don't even think it leaks from there that I can tell, but it definitely leaks from one of the seems beneath it where the two pieces are fastened together..

Not in the mood to take it apart and put it back together to see if that helps and with my luck that will void my warranty or something I have half a mind to just say screw it, open it up and put a layer of epoxy there to seal the whole damn thing but I know that is against better judgement..

Haven't done this in years and I still can't catch a break Guess I should fire off an e-mail to try and get RMA started, tho that seems like it may take forever as there is some crap in the manual about returning the part to the merchant you purchased from first or something like that, seems like they're saying I wouldn't get a replacement until I returned the block to newegg, which likely means another RMA process and they'll probably want the whole damn kit back or something?

I dunno.. Any experiences with Swiftech support on an issue like this? What kind of turn-around time and hoops might I expect? It very clearly leaks and makes me nervous about even getting the replacement given the fact it came that way..

But I'm trying to stay positive!! from the machine in the parlour at least..

 

[Neco]

Well I had some time to sleep on in.. and hopefully my mobo is dry now since its had a fan blowing on it for over 12 hours, and there weren't any HUGE leaks to begin with.

Anyway I decided to take the block apart this morning.. And while I fixed the leak at the seams, I definitely noticed the other leak from the INLET barb (on the inside edge of the barb and the unit itself, very hard to inpect) where it appears there is a small gap in the otherwise funny looking, but uniform seal.

One of the two screws directly blow the inlet was overtightened - it takes no effort to continously turn it in place. The o-rings looks fine when I got the copper plate off and everything, but the two screws under the copper plate appear to not have been tightened properly, which is where the original leak I was complaining about at the seams came from. Reassembling it tightly made sure that leak stopped.

But still have to return it because of this inlet seal problem.. Also seems like there might be a micro-crack letting water through on what is an otherwise solid piece of plastic below the inlet but above the seams. Capping the outlet with my thumb and then blowing will produce a tiny water droplet from this area, and I repeated this multiple times.. Not sure but I think this is around the area where that one screw was overtightened, so maybe that has something to do with it. The water doesn't appear to be trickling down to the spot from the leaking barb above it.

Guess I'll try and get my PC back together today... oh well =\

 

[Neco]

Well the fun never ends!

I cleaned up the CPU and HSF it came with, with a little fussing over some things I got it to turn on.. got into windows, etc.

Then later I'm sitting in the BIOS and it locks up on me.. now its stuck in an infinite on/off loops where it turns on, then turns off, tries to turn back on again, turns off... etc..

I have NO idea what would cause this, unless the Northbridge is somehow damaged or something.. I noticed the HSF on it could be moved around a little and I'm worried that I somehow put pressure the wrong way for a second while doing other things (it was a ***** to get the CPU fan on, one of the holes was a problem and I may have knocked the NB Heatsink). I'm gonna see if I can remove it without busting the mounting pins, clean up the chip and put the HS back on and hope it was just overheating.

I put in for an RMA with newegg since its the weekend and at least I could get it moving withought waiting for Swiftech to possibly tell me I had to go thru them anyway.. But all that aside, now I may have to e-mail them and ask my RMA be changed from an exchange to a refund, if I have to buy a new motherboard...

I'm a big pessimest it seems, cause now I keep kicking myself for ever wanting to get back into this stuff.. Its always one disaster after another

 

[Hmmgotmilk]

I got me an idea. Did you plug one of the fans into the CPU header?

Random guess, but if the BIOS doesn't see a CPU fan, wont it turn the system off?

 

[QuietIce]

IDK about that board. The ASUS boards just show an error then let you opt to enter BIOS or continue ...

 

[Neco]

I have a Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3R for the record.

The CPU fan is plugged into the CPU fan header. I have never run the two 120mm case fans on the board headers before, but am doing so now. They -don't- appear to be the cause of the problem because I did testing with them unplugged as well..

As of this morning, I have it running current and it hasn't locked up on me.. But its just sitting in the BIOS also, using the fan RPM indicators as a lockup gauge periodically.

Usually it would lock up when the "System Temp" hit 34C but its gone up to 36C without locking up this time.. I am supposing that is a Northbridge reading, as I can't see the internal case temp being that high even with the panel on.

I put my O/C settings back into effect and am waiting to see what it does.. hopefully it won't be locked up when I go upstairs. I made one change at my brothers suggestion, though I don't know how or why it would matter.

I removed two of my RAM modules, that I had resat earlier when the board was out and I was working on the Northbridge. He says maybe dust in the socket or something.. I am 99% sure I did not splash any of my DRAM modules with any water (I had a bit of trouble getting my tubes out of the case and apparently they weren't empty.. don't you love pressure changes)

I dunno... maybe it will work now? Maybe there is an issue with the DDR sockets with dust or god forbid damage? Maybe it just needed some more time to "dry out?"

My only concern is that it is cooler today than it was yesterday.. I have been very careful not to touch the NB block in any way to avoid any nudges or movements... I do not like these mounts.. But if the system resumes normal operating I'll be happy.. Although I may play it safe and buy a new board anyway... A nice SLI board for $4 less than the kit I'm returning, although I want one more for the larger 16GB ram capacity than SLI or Crossfire.. Plus newer Gigabyte boards have heatpipes on the boards, and have a tension bar underneath those mounts on the bottom of the board.. Which makes me feel a little better about any future board purchases with flimsy NB setups...

*crosses fingers*... going upstairs to check on it..

 

[Neco]

Ok so I'm posting from my machine, in windows.. I remounting the 4GB of RAM I took out, and let it sit in the BIOS monitoring screen for about an hour (I think thats how long I slep).

So I decided to hook everything up and go into windows, minus two drives I don't need at the moment. Hopefully reseating my X-Fi will have alleviated weird issues I was having with it as well (randomly disappearing or not working, despite changing slots).

Only thing now is Realtemp reports my clock changing randomly, which I hope is just me having forgot to turn off something in the BIOS. Guess I'll try and play a game later on if it holds up.

 

[QuietIce]

If it's the CPU speed you're talking about changing randomly you might want to check CnQ or whatever it is your BIOS calls it now ...

 

[boucher91]

so are u rma,ing the kit or using it...
i ordered one it hasnt came yet....