AC's Phenom Review and Techinical info

[harlam357]

Ladies and Gentlemen - I believe we've just lost AC... please stand by.

 

[copernicus]

well gigabyte finally released a beta bios f3b for the ga-ma790fx-ds5 am2+ mobo, heres the description

1. Fix TLB erratum in L3 cache for AMD Phenom CPU
2. Improve HT3.0 bus overclocking ability

linky for ac and anyone else with this board that would like to try it

i should have this flashed and testing the errata fix performance loss % by this weekend and seeing how well it oc's.
hopefully i can get the fsb past 240 without the bios freezing with this one if not i'll have to start tweaking the ram not my strong point

 

[AlabamaCajun]

Thanks, I ripped down a copy and will flash it this weekend with the 4600 in so I know it will be stable. The lets see what we can do

 

[malvindo]

this is a reason i am sticking with AMD, most enthusest can be blind and continue to pay a **** load of money to intel and nvidia, while we pay little and get similar performing parts, they may not OC as much but its not a pain in the wallet, and we still get awesome performance. sure you could get a Q6600 but man as soon as another chip comes out your screwed motherboard wise. plus i read alot more intel chips are DOA then AMD chips, as well as mobo are DOA or die quickly then AMD, Intel is faster yes but AMD cheap reliable and future proof.

agree!
for me price performance ratio top priority,
2nd priority? my wallet n bank account
so i wont burn my hard earned cash to super high price product , which the producent will kill us all if the competiton dead, remember $1000 CPU?? @ Pentium Era??

i still using Nf3 with Opty 165 0712 cheap n overclock to 9x310 @ stock voltage
waiting n considering replace my X 1950 Pro to 3850 512mb AGP when they come

my plan for upgrade or 2nd rig was
AM2+ mobo with Brisbane
wait untill Agena can overclock easy reach 3.0ghz @ stock (Q2 next year i hope)

 

[copernicus]

little update on the f3b bios, use it at your own risk, a beta bios for sure.

flash went good, selected optimized defaults after, then checked mem voltage. was still setting it at 1.9 when i need 2.2. fixed that then booted to windows at stock speeds with tlb patch off. first thing i notice is my windows theme is reset to windows xp:confused

the second thing i notice is a major sluggish feeling from the system, no zip at all. checked cpu-z etc. all looked good so i ran 3dmark06 and what a joke that was, 3552 with the 3870's in xfire. was thinkin maybe the tlb patch was enabled but the performance hit shouldn't be that big lol.

so i rebooted to bios and checked and it was not enabled. looked through the whole bios and checked all settings, all was the same as it was in f2 other than the new multiplier for the imc, that was on auto. and the auto xpress settings in f2 are all enabled, in f3b they are all disabled. so i enabled all of them then rebooted to windows. damn win xp theme again pc was still feeling sluggish didn't bother benching anything i knew the result already no matter what i changed in bios results were the same

decided enuf of that and rebooted to reflash back to f2 hit delete and the bios froze at this point i'm kickin myself in the @$$. got it flashed after another reboot, set it back to where i had it before and all is good no xp theme god i hate that icky blue crud. and 3dmark is back to normal. i did check the auto xpress again before reflashing and noticed they were all still disabled after i enabled them and saved. so now it's back to waiting for another bios ho hum

 

[OBLIVIONLORD]

this is a reason i am sticking with AMD, most enthusest can be blind and continue to pay a **** load of money to intel and nvidia, while we pay little and get similar performing parts

A Q6600 for example is $280 and has more overclocking headroom on air than any Phenom. I don't see how this processor is a blind purchase for any enthusiast when they aren't paying alot of money for it since it's priced in the same class as the Phenoms. This completely negates your comment of "Similar performing parts".

they may not OC as much but its not a pain in the wallet, and we still get awesome performance.

How is Intel a pain in the wallet? When you look at the prices of chips in the same class from both companies then you will see that the Q6600 is $280 and X3210 is $250. Both are priced just as competitively to the Phenoms.

sure you could get a Q6600 but man as soon as another chip comes out your screwed motherboard wise.

Not true for anyone that bought a P35 chipset in June 07 or x38 last Nov. 680i came out last year and was compatible with Penryn until Nvidia pulled the plug but, it's just a simple bios change which currently isn't an official word to say if they will re-support the Penryn.

plus i read alot more intel chips are DOA then AMD chips, as well as mobo are DOA or die quickly then AMD, Intel is faster yes but AMD cheap reliable and future proof.

This is purely a biased comment. I don't know of whatever statistics you read or whatever group of AMD fanboys you listen to, but obviously there will be more of an abundance of DOA chips from Intel than AMD since AMD isn't producing the same quantity as Intel. That is just common sense.

As far as reliability goes.. outside of user error, it's just small bugs in the microcode. Some fixed by microcode patches, some undiscovered or no fix planned. Intel thoroughly documents the errata for each processor stepping; I would presume AMD does the same.

 

[AlabamaCajun]

Got my replacement and was about to say working good so far then it rebooted. Something is causing instability and I'm not sure what. Orthos and the other benchmarking software all do well but folding will cause a reboot. Sucks because theres my Q6600 at 3.2G folding away though quite warm at 56C.

Edit, Flashed back to F1 and attempting to see if it runs stable.

 

[GunnerMan]

Ok when comparing the price of a chip there are lots more factors than just the initial cost. We have heat generation, power draw, motherboard price, and other compatible components.

AMD has a quad core cpu out for sub 200, yes it is slower than the Q6600 but if you don't play 3dmark for fun MOST users would never know the difference (or in some cases think it is faster). So AMD has a cheaper CPU to start.

AMDs 9500 CPU draws 89W peak load, Intels Q6600 consumes 102W of power, again AMD is a cheaper option.(Especially if your a business and plan to have 100s or even thousands cpus on all the time.)

AMDs TDP is 95W and Intels Q6600 is 105W, not a huge difference but AMD still beats it out again same as above saving on the cooling(electric bill).

Now lets talk about motherboards. Lets forget the base price for each motherboard company and talk about compatibility. Any of AMDs AM2 socket CPUs work in an AM2+ board and any AM2+ CPUs work in an AM2 board. AM2+ CPUs will also work in AM3 boards. Intel is planning a socket change in the near future.

So if i were Mr. Business man running a company lets say a company that does lots of calculations, such as an architecutal firm. I need a CPU that is fast because fast= productivity but I also need to make sure my new found productivity is not negated by the cost of the new platform. It seems to me AMD would be the clear choice for a money wise person (especially business owner).

I know the crowd around here a purely performance so a lot of this is irrelavant to most but if you want to talk cost it is a clear win for AMD, always has been.

Hey I accept Intel is faster, overclocks better, damn by the way the Intel guys are running around here I would think the damn this is 'god-like." You know I don't really have a problem with the cost or power use of a chip. I choose AMD because I prefer to support "small" business and inovative busniness rather than large corporations that have zero incentive to push forward in any direction besides the size of their wallet. Obviously I have limits im not going to go buy some Via CPu because it would just not be practical but AMD is still well within my scope of acceptable performance.

 

[SLee]

AMD has a quad core cpu out for sub 200, yes it is slower than the Q6600 but if you don't play 3dmark for fun MOST users would never know the difference (or in some cases think it is faster). So AMD has a cheaper CPU to start.

There's also a modestly cheaper Intel quad-core as well, the Xeon 3210.

AMDs 9500 CPU draws 89W peak load, Intels Q6600 consumes 102W of power, again AMD is a cheaper option.(Especially if your a business and plan to have 100s or even thousands cpus on all the time.)

http://www.techreport.com/r.x/phenom/cine-power-idle.gif
http://www.techreport.com/r.x/phenom/cine-power-peak.gif
http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/cpu/amd-phenom/power.png

Intel has the power advantage as well. And that's not even taking into consideration the 45nm C2Ds.

Now lets talk about motherboards. Lets forget the base price for each motherboard company and talk about compatibility. Any of AMDs AM2 socket CPUs work in an AM2+ board and any AM2+ CPUs work in an AM2 board. AM2+ CPUs will also work in AM3 boards. Intel is planning a socket change in the near future.

Compatibility with Barcelona based Opterons and Phenoms haven't been perfect with existing AM2 and Socket F platforms.

Hey I accept Intel is faster, overclocks better, damn by the way the Intel guys are running around here I would think the damn this is 'god-like."

It's about as close to god-like as a CPU can get, seeing as it has extremely high per-clock performance, overclockability and low power consumption.

You know I don't really have a problem with the cost or power use of a chip. I choose AMD because I prefer to support "small" business and inovative busniness rather than large corporations that have zero incentive to push forward in any direction besides the size of their wallet.

AMD isn't a small business, it's just a poorly runned one. And Intel will always have incentive to innovate, in order to ensure the marketplace doesn't become happy with the computing power that they currently have.

 

[AlabamaCajun]

I believe that most of the Opterons are OK being at or below 2.0. The problem seems to be in the Phenom. The Q6600 is a well seasoned CPU but Intel is having an issue with the Penryn consumer chips whether is price or stability Intel won't come clean like AMD did.

 

[Alpha_One]

AMDs 9500 CPU draws 89W peak load, Intels Q6600 consumes 102W of power, again AMD is a cheaper option.(Especially if your a business and plan to have 100s or even thousands cpus on all the time.)

AMDs TDP is 95W and Intels Q6600 is 105W, not a huge difference but AMD still beats it out again same as above saving on the cooling(electric bill).

Err, Q6600 G0 stepping has a TDP of 95W. It's been out for quite a while now.

http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLACR

 

[hUMANbEATbOX]

Wow you guys are glossing over the real news here...seeing as this is AC's thread.

Seems that this errata plagued cpu's aren't goon in F@H? Have you tried the "10% performance decreasing" BIOS yet, if it is available? Are there any other programs that you have run into this kind of instability in? Seti, etc?

Everyone is saying the next stepping will be fixing this errata, has AMD offered any proof that they have fixed or can fix the problem? Let's not discuss Intel's errata in their Penryn...we all know they could float another year on Kentsfield if they had to.

 

[QuietIce]

[snip] ... And Intel will always have incentive to innovate, in order to ensure the marketplace doesn't become happy with the computing power that they currently have.

Now THAT'S funny ...

 

[hUMANbEATbOX]

Now THAT'S funny ...

Consider that my mother is still running a 2500+, my step father is still running a 2.2ghz p4, my little brother is still running a 1.8ghz p4. All of these PC's suit everyone's needs. Now my brother just started college, doing digital multimedia. So what is he using now? An Apple laptop with a 2.33ghz (I think) C2D. People who make their living with computers will always need something faster, so there will always be a market for top dollar CPU's.

If Intel can't convince the average Jane Doe (aka my mother) that they need a new CPU then they are hosed. Even without AMD they will always have reason to innovate. Perhaps these innovations may end up costing more with lesser competition, but realistically speaking, if you NEED the kind of power we'll be seeing in the next few years, you'll be able to pay for it. The rest of the average Joes and Janes will be able to "scrape by" with X2's and low end C2D's. Oh Noes.

Btw, in January my mothers 2500+ is being replaced with a e2140 for around $75 plus ~$80 for a mobo and ~$60 for ram. Does this mean I am blind? No, it just means I value my mothers dollar enough to get her the best bang.

 

[rainless]

Err, Q6600 G0 stepping has a TDP of 95W. It's been out for quite a while now.

http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLACR

Well there goes that theory... Hahahahha...

 

[AlabamaCajun]

Thanks HBB, I've kept quiet thinking/hoping it did not go beyond simple discussion. I'm partially at fault for bringing up the Q6600 as a mature comparison. As for memory issues, I remember the early days of Conroe with it's memory issues so this is not unique to AMD. Motherboards had all kinds of issues which we recorded in the F@H section here and on New Eggs reviews. By the time the Kents came out this issue had gone away. I'm hopefull that by 2 months this issue will fade from memory meaning AMD made it right.

Were not here to "Love" these companies but to Lover their chips. I'm not feeling any of that from this Phenom yet. Intel innovates when they feel like as the reason we got 64 bits from AMD. I don't think AMD is poorly run but someone screwed the silicon pooch. I've got a bunch of AMD hardware running in my reach that is mostly solid. The spider platform will be great and has a lot of potential untapped, AMD just needs to fix it's star!

 

[QuietIce]

Thanks HBB, I've kept quiet thinking/hoping it did not go beyond simple discussion. I'm partially at fault for bringing up the Q6600 as a mature comparison. As for memory issues, I remember the early days of Conroe with it's memory issues so this is not unique to AMD. Motherboards had all kinds of issues which we recorded in the F@H section here and on New Eggs reviews. By the time the Kents came out this issue had gone away. I'm hopefull that by 2 months this issue will fade from memory meaning AMD made it right.

Were not here to "Love" these companies but to Lover their chips. I'm not feeling any of that from this Phenom yet. Intel innovates when they feel like as the reason we got 64 bits from AMD. I don't think AMD is poorly run but someone screwed the silicon pooch. I've got a bunch of AMD hardware running in my reach that is mostly solid. The spider platform will be great and has a lot of potential untapped, AMD just needs to fix it's star!

I disagree that someone "screwed the silicon pooch" as you say (nice wording, though! ). I think the engineers probably said, "Hey, we need more time!" and management said, "We don't have the time, get it out the door and fix the problems later." Not only does Intel and AMD have this issue, every major manufacturer in the world does it with "new releases", whether it be IC chips, appliances, or cars. Ever hear the saying, "Never buy a new car in it's first year?" (And I don't even want to talk about the M-16, Bradley, or Ospray. )

I think in the end AMD's changes will be a good thing for all of us but it will take time to get the bugs out, as with everything else. Hopefully even the chip and motherboard you now have will work out in the end - personally I don't think AMD will screw it's "first year" customers but only time will tell.

Consider that my mother is still running a 2500+, my step father is still running a 2.2ghz p4, my little brother is still running a 1.8ghz p4. All of these PC's suit everyone's needs. Now my brother just started college, doing digital multimedia. So what is he using now? An Apple laptop with a 2.33ghz (I think) C2D. People who make their living with computers will always need something faster, so there will always be a market for top dollar CPU's.

If Intel can't convince the average Jane Doe (aka my mother) that they need a new CPU then they are hosed. Even without AMD they will always have reason to innovate. Perhaps these innovations may end up costing more with lesser competition, but realistically speaking, if you NEED the kind of power we'll be seeing in the next few years, you'll be able to pay for it. The rest of the average Joes and Janes will be able to "scrape by" with X2's and low end C2D's. Oh Noes.

Btw, in January my mothers 2500+ is being replaced with a e2140 for around $75 plus ~$80 for a mobo and ~$60 for ram. Does this mean I am blind? No, it just means I value my mothers dollar enough to get her the best bang.

So you basically support my argument. Good!


Now back to your regularly scheduled program ...

 

[GunnerMan]

Im sorry i just did a quick search on the google last night and found some obviously bogus nunbers, so much for X-Bit lol. Compared to intel AMD is a small business, not small like your thinking and thats why I added the quotes around small. How it is managed is irrelavant. Intel, without competition and vice versa would have no incentive to inovate unless someone like the US military asked them for something. otherwise we would just be getting slightly better products and paying a premium for them.

The compatibility issues, well they are there yes but that is not AMDs fault that is the motherboard maker beeing lazy and not providing a bios update.

All of us here in the amd section are here for a reason, we are not blind or deaf, we hear your cries for us to go buy an intel chip. The ones that want to want to, but it really makes a forum ****ty (this one and Xtremesystems) when we try and have a thread in the AMD section and it gets **** all over by some dumb **** that needs to come and tell me how much the Q2D owns. It feels like we have a bunch of 10 year olds running around telling us what to do, who knows maybe we do...

Just a side note i might add and please note i have done zero research but someone mentioned the G0 stepping has a TDP of 95W, I was trying to compare just the bare numbers because comparing a new chip to a more mature chip is of course going to give you some flawed numbers in comparison because intel has had time to perfect their design. Who knows if AMDs power and TDP go down as time goes on. Since we don't know that I just did the quick google search and hoped I would find a general number.

 

[copernicus]

Got my replacement and was about to say working good so far then it rebooted. Something is causing instability and I'm not sure what. Orthos and the other benchmarking software all do well but folding will cause a reboot. Sucks because theres my Q6600 at 3.2G folding away though quite warm at 56C.

Edit, Flashed back to F1 and attempting to see if it runs stable.

sorry to hear that ac i have yet to have any crash at all with the f2 bios at stock speed or 11x216 which i keep it at for now. although i don't fold i'll dl f@h and give it a go and see what happens.

don't know if you've tried this yet though i'm sure you have i'll mention it anyway select failsafe defaults in bios rather than optimized defaults making sure to check the memory voltage is correct.
also try different mem if possible my ddr800 gave me major trouble in this board but my ddr1066 has been great.

edit: any way to make f@h use 100% cpu? right now it only uses 25% tried setting core priority to slightly higher, and cpu use% slider is all the way right but still only 25% it use's all 4 cores just only 25% cpu time. should i have downloaded the v6.0 beta?

 

[AlabamaCajun]

You have to get the SMP version. After you install it, run the install inside the folding... folder in Progam Files for it to setup the Proxy for accessing windows otherwise it will fail. Use and name and 32 for the team.

I just did two memtests 837M each, went off to do something for an hour and it had rebooted. I'll try some of the settings you suggested and see if they work. I had this thing fold 24 hours on the 2nd day. As for the board, ram. PSU etc, I've had a 4600X2 in it for almost 2 weeks folding 2 cores 24/7 not one hickup and that "was" my worst chip on other boards.