Breaking into the world of watercooling.

[dyckah]

kk, i got the system up and running, no leaks after leak testing overnight, however, my idle temperatures are 10 C warmer than they were with my aircooling setup.
i figured maybe i goofed on the thermal paste, so i took off the cpu block, and reapplied the AS5, but still my idle temperatures are 10 C warmer.
now, i dont have the fans in push/pull configuration on the rad, i just got some 41CFM fans pulling air through the rad currently, ran outa money for the three high pressure 133cfm fans, and fan controller that i wanted to get, so i could run a push/pull, so thats gonna have to wait until my next paycheck, but could that be my issue?
or my other thought, is the CPU block just too dated, and cant handle the heat of my CPU?

 

[scorchingice]

Straggling in Late once again on a post (Hey I got a new boat that I am putting a new floor in ATM (Well new for me its actually a Very old boat that I took in to restore. It's a classic. Some people do car restoration. I do boats and computers. But I enjoy water with both )

you can also get a Paypal account without a credit card AFAIK, you just need a bank account.

Statement is true. You do not even have to have a checking account. Just a savings that allows electronic deposits. (This is the way I did it.)

i went with the GT, because sadly, its the best cpu waterblock that my local shop will bring in for me. if i find that temperatures arent quite what im hoping for, i'll be getting myself a prepaid credit card, and ordering a better one for myself online.

BTW all it takes to get the prepaid is about $8 and a trip to Walmart for their Walmart money card you actually just pull from a shelf, Buy and load with cash

NOW: On to the main issue:

If your local shop will not get what you want, Buy it online. In the "Old days" Buying online was risky, But with reputable dealers like Petras, Newegg, FrozenCPU, etc, There is no reason to cut corners because your Local shop isn't up to par.

Anyhow people are correct. The Apogee GT is outdated and not worth getting IMO, Take the time to review blocks, and get the one best for you. Also take into consideration whether your CPU IS Lapped currently or if you are planing to do so in the future. The Apogee GT will be worse than air cooling if you Lap your CPU, the GTZ isn't as bad on Lapped CPU's cause of the new mounting system. But others are better.

Some nice CPU Water block reviews I have found are :

If using an UNLAPPED Stock Processor:
http://vapor.skinneelabs.com/i7/Round1/Round1i7.html

If you have a Lapped or are planning to Lap your CPU: (Which IMO helps SO Much I dropped 18c under full load)

here is a nice review with lapped processors. (Note comment #11)
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=224976&highlight=heatkiller

However it seems you have your items, and have it up and running.

10c Hotter than the Aircooling. something is wrong. Air in the line, or (Is your CPU Lapped?) if not maybe check the mounting.

I want to clarify for myself. What is your EXACT Loop. What is being cooled with this setup?

If you have just your CPU in this setup with a 3x120 rad and no other blocks, 41 CFM fans should still get you better cooling than you had on air as long as you have all 3 installed and running and your CPU is not lapped. Even with the after market Thermalright Ultra-120 eXtreme, Any watercooling setup should never run 10c hotter.

Just so you do not think I am a rookie blowing smoke (I know how to research)

http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.asp?m=100819358

Note the comment by XLAR8 Post #3 to be exact. He is correct that radiator works better with lower CFM fans actualy, as by design.

Just Note, THAT is your exact CPU in his comment. (Yes he is only at 4GhZ not 4.5GhZ) But still its a nice find for your situation.

 

[hokiealumnus]

Heh, oops...you linked to the same review twice.

 

[scorchingice]

Heh, oops...you linked to the same review twice.

Thank you Hokie. Corrected.

BTW I am So Happy I lapped my CPU and cooler. 18c lower temps under full load.

Still haven't jumped to water yet, but actually happy about it. I have changed my mind for the good over 10 times in the past week or 2. And I would have bought a Water block that would have been hurt by using a Lapped CPU.

BTW here is YET another that shows Lapping a CPU can cause adverse effects with Water blocks.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=130142

NOTE the comment about :

Wow!! The Apogee with the bowed base outperformed the FuZion by 3.2c!

From about 5 hours searching the Web. I have come to the conclusion that with NO DOUBT:

If you have a Lapped CPU, Lap your Block as well. And check your mounting. (If your block has a mounting setup with a Fixed radius for tightening it down) that means it was designed and setup for a STOCK CPU, NOT a Lapped one and THIS will be a major factor in it performing like crap. It will never tighten down enough to allow proper cooling.

So, IMO Lapping is well worth it, IF you have the right block to support it, otherwise Stock is better.

5 hours reasearching this. Glad I have. anyone with support/debate is welcome to bring it on...


Anyhow back to the matter at hand. YOUR Radiator Specs from Swiftech.

http://www.swiftnets.com/products/MCR320-QP.asp

Note the part of being Optimized for 120mm fans with low to medium air output.
The charts also show with various fan outputs and the details of that.
Your 41cfm fans are NOT the issue. Will higher CFM fans help more, sure most likely they will.

HOWEVER, those fans are NOT causing the issue that you are running at 10c higher than air cooling.

Something else is the issue. Slow fans work fine for this radiator Therefore, NOT the issue for that type of temp severity.

 

[dyckah]

yeah, i have an unlapped processor, im not quite brave enough to attempt lapping right now, maybe i'll attempt lapping an old rig or two of mine first, see how that goes.
and my local shop is actually a pretty good one, most of the time, as i live about 5 minutes away from an (NCIX location.
and its only 2 bucks for a prepaid credit card if you goto money mart, or one of the banks that has it, i was just too lazy to go wait in line to get one.
i've redone the thermal paste 3 times, just incase i messed it up, it has looked just fine each time, im using AS5 paste.
i have black tubing, but the air in the reservoir is totally bubble free, so i dont think there is any air bubbles, i spent quite some time tapping on the rad when i was bleeding the system through.
and the only thing this is cooling is my CPU, with the loop going Res -> Pump -> Rad -> CPU -> Res
and the system its in is exactly whats in my sig

 

[thorilan]

could you elaborate on lapped cpu
you mean heat spreader ?

 

[scorchingice]

could you elaborate on lapped cpu
you mean heat spreader ?

No I mean Lapped CPU. Lapped CPU is the term used for when you basically take your CPU and make it a TRUE flat surface by Sanding it down with many grades of sandpaper on a true flat surface. That way is is more in the lines of flat and less in the lines of being concave/convex. This gives the CPU the flattest available surface for the heatsink to cool. And the most area for it to cool with no air gaps/less thermal compound. True metal to metal achieves best thermal heat dispersing.

However on SOME Waterblocks/Cooling Blocks, the mounting surfaces were made to best suit stock CPU's due to the fact they have a "Set range of motion"

They will only crank down on a CPU so far (Which is usually the best for Stock CPU's but by lapping them, you lose a little surface area so the heatsink can no longer firmly secure itself to the top of the CPU.

I lowered my CPU temps 18c Under full load on air cooling by Lapping my Intel e6850 and my Zalman 9700 CNPS LED cooler. So yes it was well worth it.


CPU Lapping Guide I used to Lap my CPU. Very nice guide in Youtube format.

It is 2 parts:

Part #1

Part #2

 

[Conumdrum]

Some waterblocks still are bowed, can't remember the famous one (V1?) that did better with a thicker o-ring inside the block, thus bowing the block. It worked. I put much more pressure on the CPU exactly where the Cores were. It sqished out the TIM, so there was less TIM (which contrary to belief is an insulator in comparison to a perfect metal to metal contact) so the heat transfer was better.

Some CPU heatsinks, mainly air can benefit from lapping due to manufacturing defects. Some CPU's need lapping.

I don't lap till I place some ketchup on a piece of glass, place the suspect CPU or heatsink on it, push hard, pick up the glass and see how much ketchup is left with the CPU or HS still pushed hard against the glass.

Blindly lapping cuz Joe did it isn't smart. lap if ya need to. And 600 is more than enough.

 

[Spawn-Inc]

No I mean Lapped CPU.

a lapped cpu is also know as a heatspreader, or integrated heat spreader (IHS) for its full name. it's the metal cap/lid on your cpu and what is often uneven and not very flat.

 

[scorchingice]

Some CPU heatsinks, mainly air can benefit from lapping due to manufacturing defects. Some CPU's need lapping.

All CPU Heatsinks can benefit from lapping (whether done at the manufacturer or if you do it yourself. (Which if you do it yourself correctly is going to be better than what they do simply because they are mass manufacturing them.

Blindly lapping cuz Joe did it isn't smart. lap if ya need to. And 600 is more than enough.

You are not going to harm anything by lapping as long as you do it correctly and do not over lap your cpu. And using one sheet of 600 is not enough, you are not going to get a nice flat smooth finish with it. And that smooth mirror finish helps with more than just a cool reflection you will never see. It provides less places the heat sink compound must fill for true smooth surface to surface contact.

could you elaborate on lapped cpu
you mean heat spreader ?

a lapped cpu is also know as a heatspreader, or integrated heat spreader (IHS) for its full name. it's the metal cap/lid on your cpu and what is often uneven and not very flat.

Yes it can be called a heat spreader as shown in Wiki, But when I hold my CPU or order a CPU, I don't say Give me a CPU with built in heat spreader. And I don't say "Wow this is a really nice CPU/IHS combo I got in my hand. I say CPU or Processor.

People knew what I meant. Shakes head.

Back to the matter at hand.

Sorry dyckah I can't help beyond what I've asked. With your loop, you should get better temps than air. It may be that GT Block, It seems it doesn't do well with that CPU especially over clocked so high.

Anyhow I hope the pro's here can give you better advice to get those temps down with the info you have stated here.

 

[Spawn-Inc]

Yes it can be called a heat spreader as shown in Wiki, But when I hold my CPU or order a CPU, I don't say Give me a CPU with built in heat spreader. And I don't say "Wow this is a really nice CPU/IHS combo I got in my hand. I say CPU or Processor.

yes i didn't mean to come across like that. i was just sticking up for thorilan, he knows what a lapped cpu is, or i should hope so

 

[dyckah]

kk, so i figure that im going to see about a new cpu block, see if that helps my temperatures get down like i want them.
whats the difference between the Heatkiller CPU Rev3.0, and the Heatkiller CPU Rev3.0 LT?
from what i can see, one of them just has a copper finish on the top, and one has a black finish?

 

[Spawn-Inc]

correct one is copper and the other is copper and a plastic top. the lc is for low cost. both work great though.

 

[dyckah]

correct one is copper and the other is copper and a plastic top. the lc is for low cost. both work great though.

kk.
think i would be better off with one of those, the Apogee GTZ, or the D-tek fuzion v2?

 

[ascl]

From a pure performance point of view, yes, you are better off with a Heat Killer. However, I recently got an Apogee GTZ -- mainly cause I figured the mounting system was excellent, and was one less thing that could potentially go wrong. For me, the couple of degrees worse temps were worth a dead easy mount.

YMMV of course.

 

[thorilan]

my point was its a heat spreader.
the reason i point that out is because some of us de lid our CPUs and i have even known some people to try and lap a core ( dont ask me why)

havent de lidded a CPU in a while . maybe i will consider the 9850 amd a candidate.

 

[Hipcrostino]

I have to agree with thorilan here. I remember the days of lapping the core, but hey we hardly have IHS's in them days.

I would also like to point out that lapping to a mirror finished has been conclusivly prooved to have no benifit over a not so mirror finish. I mean, you want it smooth, and will be able to see yourself in it, but you won't be able to start fires with it or pop pimples in it. The key is smooth and flat.

@ dyckah - I wouldn't both with a new cpu block quite so soon. If your temps are higher than air at idle, the most important thing to remember is that idle temps don't matter. Load temps are what counts. I would suggest that first up you make sure you block is tight on the cpu. My Apogee GTX is so tight the board is bowing a tad. You don't need to go that tight(and probably shouldn't), but ive found that pressing the HS on the cpu with more pressure can bring down temps by 10s of degrees. So make sure its tight. Test your load temps, see if they are better than air, and if your happy with them. If your still not, then upgrade the block. I just don't think they suck as much as everyone is making out. Sure they are old, but a new block won't net you 10c in load temps unless something other than just the old block was incorrect.

wow that was longer than expected...!

 

[dyckah]

I have to agree with thorilan here. I remember the days of lapping the core, but hey we hardly have IHS's in them days.

I would also like to point out that lapping to a mirror finished has been conclusivly prooved to have no benifit over a not so mirror finish. I mean, you want it smooth, and will be able to see yourself in it, but you won't be able to start fires with it or pop pimples in it. The key is smooth and flat.

@ dyckah - I wouldn't both with a new cpu block quite so soon. If your temps are higher than air at idle, the most important thing to remember is that idle temps don't matter. Load temps are what counts. I would suggest that first up you make sure you block is tight on the cpu. My Apogee GTX is so tight the board is bowing a tad. You don't need to go that tight(and probably shouldn't), but ive found that pressing the HS on the cpu with more pressure can bring down temps by 10s of degrees. So make sure its tight. Test your load temps, see if they are better than air, and if your happy with them. If your still not, then upgrade the block. I just don't think they suck as much as everyone is making out. Sure they are old, but a new block won't net you 10c in load temps unless something other than just the old block was incorrect.

wow that was longer than expected...!

kk, if i was to tighten up the block onto the cpu, should i reapply the thermal paste, and then tighten up, or just tighten the thing up as is?
i last put the cpu block on on friday


edit::
so i just tightened up the block as is, and due to the high room temperature, and still not getting temp's i was comfortable with while loading the cpu, i dropped the cpu multiplier down to 8, and the clock down to 4.0Ghz, i got a max temp of 75 C while using IntelBurnTest, with prime95 small ftt, it didnt go over 62 C!

 

[dyckah]

and some pictures of my loop!

 

[ascl]

Looks good! I'd personally prefer less bling (LEDs), but each to their own