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Liquid Metal Longevity - A Case Study

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DaneH

New Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2023
Okay, so we all know that liquid metal thermal interface material (TIM) can be used to make some sick performance gains, especially in laptops. But there's some anecdotal evidence to suggest it needs to be reapplied, when used with naked copper, anywhere between 3 months and 1 year.
But how much of a difference does reapplying actually make?

Based on my experience, with my late 2020 Razer Blade Stealth, it was found that after ~500 days from initially applying Conductonaut to the CPU and GPU, performance significantly improved (p = 9.619e-11) after reapplying, as seen in Figure 1.

To test this, 4 benchmarks were used; CinebenchR20, TimeSpy Extreme, Fire Strike, and Rainbow 6 Seige. Each one was tested 3 times, before and after reapplication, with ~60 seconds between each run. All testing was done in an air-conditioned room, standardised to 100% fan speed. Furthermore, the average CPU and GPU temperature, during each run, was recorded using Hardware Info.

From this, it was found that GPU temperatures significantly decreased (p = 0.03302), from a mean of 56.4̇̇ °C to 46.1̇̇ °C, which likely contributes to the improved scores, especially in GPU-centric benchmarks such as TimeSpy Extreme, which increased by an average of 2.3%.

However, CPU temperatures insignificantly increased (p = 0.5963) by an average of ~1 °C, going from 52.5 °C to 53.6̇̇ °C. Yet Cinebench scores still increased by an average of ~0.5%. I would speculate that this is because little ion migration could be seen on the CPU side of the heatsink, as pictured in Figure 2. Although, what ion migration that is visibly present, is unevenly distributed across the CPU die. Therefore, perhaps the areas without the TIM, in a liquid state, were holding back the CPU overall, even if this is not being accurately reported in software, as during initial inspection, all the individual core temperatures were quite even. This may have also been further exaggerated by technician error, as the thermal pad, between the CPU side of the heatsink and the aluminium back panel, was not properly reapplied before secondary testing.

So yeah, reapplying your liquid metal after a while can make for some improvements. Results may vary. Perhaps testing with NaK may give more explosive results?
 

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  • Before Reapplying Fig 2.jpg
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Thank you and :welcome:

Liquid metal TIM is something that I have been watching but not been moved to purchase and apply for myself. As you have noted, it takes time to know if a new idea will work over time. It is interesting to see how liquid metal is doing over time. Massive temp change. No need to answer but I wonder if the old liquid metal temps are better than new silicone based paste?

Reminds me to look at re-pasting my laptop. It is probably overdue with the regular silicone based TIM.
 
Thank you and :welcome:

Liquid metal TIM is something that I have been watching but not been moved to purchase and apply for myself. As you have noted, it takes time to know if a new idea will work over time. It is interesting to see how liquid metal is doing over time. Massive temp change. No need to answer but I wonder if the old liquid metal temps are better than new silicone based paste?

Reminds me to look at re-pasting my laptop. It is probably overdue with the regular silicone based TIM.
Yeah, I don't have any objective data for this, but before I applied Conductonaut, I used Kryonaut on that laptop, and still found measurable improvements. However, from memory, I believe the old liquid metal temps, on the GPU, were worse than with Kryonaut.
 
NaK = Sodium Potassium? It's not a chemical compound just an alloy right? A highly combustible alloy in the presence of 02.

Would it make a good TIM in a vacuum?

I had also thought pre-applying liquid metal to a Cu heatsink and letting it dry reduced (or eliminated) the need to reapply liquid metal TIM?

According to this PS5 article (
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/7554...ink-is-why-the-console-so-gigantic/index.html), the PS5 uses a Cu coldplate and liquid metal TIM:

'The heat sink is fastened to a hard copper plate with what could be aluminum dissipation fins. The copper contact hardplate is essential as the liquid metal compound solution conducting heat from the SoC contains gallium, which is corrosive to aluminum. The heat pipes are also copper based.'

The PS5 uses liquid metal TIM from the factory and it looks like it's using a Cu interface:

75547_4_playstation-5s-massive-heat-sink-is-why-console-so-gigantic_full.png
 
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Liquid metal shouldn't need reapplying if there is no corrosion or other reactions. Somehow, it reacts with more things than only aluminum. I assume that the cooler's alloy is not always the same quality. If the copper surface is perfectly clean, then the stains will be only around the spot where the CPU/GPU die has contact.
I had some water blocks that required polishing after liquid metal usage for some longer, because the surface wasn't perfectly flat. Because I'm changing components and coolers way too often, I dislike liquid metal in general.
 
I know this is about liquid metal, and I agree with Woomack, good quality thermal compound should not need replacement. I use Type44 from GC Electronics, I used it on this MB (see pics) this PC was built in Dec 2010 and have not replaced the paste yet. Idle temps at 22c and load temps at 32c, CPU=Phenom II 1090T

DSCN0255.JPG

DSCN0722_.JPG
 
Liquid metal works differently on Ni plated Cu than it does on plain Cu. Cu tends to absorb/react w/the liquid metal TIM, whereas Ni plated Cu doesn't.

Has anyone tried treating a Cu heatsink or waterblock w/liquid metal, letting it react/absorb w/the Cu heatsink/waterblock over time before mounting it to the CPU/GPU? I've read that utilizing this step eliminates the dry out of the liquid metal over time although it requires adding more liquid metal when installing the heatsink/waterblock.
 
NaK = Sodium Potassium? It's not a chemical compound just an alloy right? A highly combustible alloy in the presence of 02.

Would it make a good TIM in a vacuum?

I had also thought pre-applying liquid metal to a Cu heatsink and letting it dry reduced (or eliminated) the need to reapply liquid metal TIM?

According to this PS5 article (
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/7554...ink-is-why-the-console-so-gigantic/index.html), the PS5 uses a Cu coldplate and liquid metal TIM:

'The heat sink is fastened to a hard copper plate with what could be aluminum dissipation fins. The copper contact hardplate is essential as the liquid metal compound solution conducting heat from the SoC contains gallium, which is corrosive to aluminum. The heat pipes are also copper based.'

The PS5 uses liquid metal TIM from the factory and it looks like it's using a Cu interface:

View attachment 363881
Yes, I was referring to the alloy NaK as a joke, given how reactive it is.


Pre-applying to the heatsink probably does increase longevity, which may have been why my temperatures before reapplying were still relatively reasonable. At least compared to the immense thermal throttling, after 3 months, that some people have reported on, who presumably did not pre-apply.

The PS5 has a nickel-plated copper cold plate. The Galinstan does not react with nickel, and so the nickel acts as a diffusion barrier. If you're interested, Der8aur spoke of this in the following video:
Post magically merged:

Liquid metal shouldn't need reapplying if there is no corrosion or other reactions. Somehow, it reacts with more things than only aluminum. I assume that the cooler's alloy is not always the same quality. If the copper surface is perfectly clean, then the stains will be only around the spot where the CPU/GPU die has contact.
I had some water blocks that required polishing after liquid metal usage for some longer, because the surface wasn't perfectly flat. Because I'm changing components and coolers way too often, I dislike liquid metal in general.
From my understanding, the liquid metal is able to penetrate the porous structure of the copper, like a sponge absorbing water. Therefore, if enough of the liquid metal is inside the copper, it is no longer able to interface the materials, limiting heat transfer.
 
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Liquid metal works differently on Ni plated Cu than it does on plain Cu. Cu tends to absorb/react w/the liquid metal TIM, whereas Ni plated Cu doesn't.

Has anyone tried treating a Cu heatsink or waterblock w/liquid metal, letting it react/absorb w/the Cu heatsink/waterblock over time before mounting it to the CPU/GPU? I've read that utilizing this step eliminates the dry out of the liquid metal over time although it requires adding more liquid metal when installing the heatsink/waterblock.
Yeah, this is a known strategy, which I've always done when applying the liquid metal. Although, it still isn't perfect. Using a thick enough electroless nickel plating still seems to be much more effective.
 
@DaneH
I was thinking of using liquid metal on my 4090 but the vapour chamber is Cu. Is it possible to electroplate Ni on Cu without using heat? I guess the entire heatsink assembly (vapour chamber, heatpipes, fin stack) would have to be plated not just the surface that contacts the GPU?
 
@DaneH
I was thinking of using liquid metal on my 4090 but the vapour chamber is Cu. Is it possible to electroplate Ni on Cu without using heat? I guess the entire heatsink assembly (vapour chamber, heatpipes, fin stack) would have to be plated not just the surface that contacts the GPU?
Yeah, as far as I'm aware, electro-nickel plating doesn't require very much heat. You could also chemically/electroless plate it, which would probably perform better, without using any heat, it would just take a very long time.
And no, you really only need the cold plate/contact area to be nickel-plated. The rest can be left bare.

If you did want to get the entire heatsink plated, you would definitely need to chemically/electroless plate it, as electro-plating is not suitable for complex structures.
 
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