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PWM control for some medium/high powered Delta fans, worth it over undervolting?

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EarthDog

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What is the suffix of the model # you're testing? I ask because, according to the delta site, the AFB1212HHE F00 (3-pin 2900 RPM) is 5.52W while the 4-pin AFB1212HHE TP02 (4-pin 2900 RPM) is 4.8W. So....... off the bat there's a difference of 0.72W or almost 16%. So if you're matching RPMs, the voltage will be different as there is already an 'offset' due to the difference, no?

That said, I don't know why the PWM model says less than the others.


delta.jpg


Edit: here's a great link explaining things on why it's more efficient (at lower power).
 
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Max0r

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Hey E-Dog (that's your rap name?) I'm going to show you that information later. I got a work weekend coming up so it might be a couple days depending on how obliterated I am. But I recorded a couple videos on my cereal box phone for the lawls




 
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Max0r

Max0r

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What is the suffix of the model # you're testing? I ask because, according to the delta site, the AFB1212HHE F00 (3-pin 2900 RPM) is 5.52W while the 4-pin AFB1212HHE TP02 (4-pin 2900 RPM) is 4.8W. So....... off the bat there's a difference of 0.72W or almost 16%. So if you're matching RPMs, the voltage will be different as there is already an 'offset' due to the difference, no?

That said, I don't know why the PWM model says less than the others.

Yep, those are the exact suffixes I have. Given the results in the test, it is clear that the TP02 is simply more efficiently achieving the same RPM. I should also mention, the TP02 feels significantly heavier. The AFB1212SHE version (also F00) feels even heavier than that. The old triblade EFB1212SHE-F00 also feels similarly heavy to these two heavier fans. I was also struck to note that the triblade spins in the other direction. I wonder if that counter-rotation with the push/pull fans helps or not, or if it's even possible to be a thing through a radiator, and/or at low RPM.

IMG_20220225_221342.jpg
 
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Max0r

Max0r

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I was looking for fans earlier today and found a source for the AFB1212HHE-PWM: https://www.coolerguys.com/collecti...delta-120x120x38mm-afb1212hhe-pwm-cooling-fan

Tempted to pick a few up soon, as I have a penchant for thick fans. If only I could find some 140x38mm PWM 12V fans.....

Now I'm tempted to find some 140x38 deltas.

This one is a bit too powerful for me. https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Delta-Electronics/PFM1412DEB7V?qs=AvgxZrxb8y2JqPCtX2akXA==

Not to say anything about the price.

The Delta website became unresponsive after I started searching. It must be the collective interest of 3 of us overwhelming their servers.

Is there anything about the AFB1212HHE PWM that you find particularly attractive?
 

EarthDog

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Buckeyes!
Yep, those are the exact suffixes I have. Given the results in the test, it is clear that the TP02 is simply more efficiently achieving the same RPM.
So if the max voltage was slightly different, doesn't that imply a slightly different voltage throughout the range too?

At 100%, how could it be more efficient? It's the same as the voltage at that point.

It's PWM...what in PWM makes it more efficient at 100% compared to the other fan(s)? Your testing looks to follow that difference throughout too. Is that a coincidence?

Again, we know it's true in some capacity at lower RPMs....


Thanks for humroing me here. Surely there is something elementary I'm missing.
 

Voodoo Rufus

Powder Junkie Moderator
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In the perfect world, 100% PWM speed and running straight would consume the same amount of power. PWM circuits should have very little waste amps.

Dear goodness, a 6500RPM 140x38? Yeah that's too much. I'd try to find some 3000-3500rpm or less. Something that can throttle down to real low PWM speeds. Unfortunately most in that form factor are server-class fans, so they go for max airflow.
 
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Max0r

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So if the max voltage was slightly different, doesn't that imply a slightly different voltage throughout the range too?

At 100%, how could it be more efficient? It's the same as the voltage at that point.

It's PWM...what in PWM makes it more efficient at 100% compared to the other fan(s)? Your testing looks to follow that difference throughout too. Is that a coincidence?

Again, we know it's true in some capacity at lower RPMs....


Thanks for humroing me here. Surely there is something elementary I'm missing.

The max voltage in testing would be different just because the controller is probably putting a lot more resistance through the extra circuitry or whatnot. It seems rather consistent that mobo headers have less voltage drop than the Lamptron controller does. Because I at least tried to maintain the pretense of achieving the same RPM through both, my argument, assuming the RPM was sufficiently matched, would be that regardless of what the voltage readings are, if they spin the same, but one channel is drawing more power out of the wall than the other, clearly one is more efficient. But, that depends entirely on the testing being sufficiently rigorous/precise, which I can't be sure of to the extent I've done things yet. Of course, attempting max speed on both channels, the one with less voltage drop will just pump out more max RPM, at which point comparing efficiency can't be done anymore since the actual RPM output is different. At best I could match down the higher RPM one to the max RPM of the more voltage dropped channel, which actually I neglected to do and now I kick myself!

The PWM version of the HHE according to the screenshot you've shown is rated for less wattage, and yet it's also rated for the same RPM. As my testing has demonstrated, it indeed pulls less watts for the same RPM, regardless of which channel it is running through. Given the seeming exact same dimensions/fins/front/back resistance, I therefore say it is more power efficient of a fan. This includes testing it in normal undervolting mode and not just PWM control, which shockingly was only slightly more efficient than undervolting it through the Lamptron (but I believe this gap could grow at higher power levels, not just in absolute value, but in percentage as well, as the results indicate the Lamptron's efficiency superiority over mobo headers seems to narrow at higher voltages or wattages).

Ultimately, I'd say across the range of RPMs tested, the voltages may have been different. The voltage SETTINGS or readouts most certainly were. The RPMs were as close to the same as I could manage. I would assume, with my layman's read of electricity, that if the voltage is dropped more on the Lamptron, I'd have to try to raise the setting higher to achieve the same RPM. And so to match the voltage, the Lamptron would have to aim for a higher voltage. Or, if the voltage remained lower, it would need to just draw more current to achieve the same power. I assume I was just aiming higher on the voltage, thus matching the actual voltage, but maybe not. But once you turn the knob all the way up, it won't "aim" higher than 12, and so it never quite reaches the same voltage the mobo header does.

You'll notice that the PWM model fan runs more efficiently across the board compared to its non-PWM brother. It seems to just be higher quality or efficiency spec. It runs even more efficiently with PWM control. At maximum compared to DC mode on the mobo header it just about matches, and could very well have matched, as my ways of reading wattage with a Killawatt are extremely imprecise. It used more wattage than the Lamptron simply because the Lamptron couldn't achieve the max voltage all the way. Overall the power draw at max on the 3 different tests of the PWM model are almost identical. The fact that it blows away the non-PWM brother model in watts used at max speed seems to track pretty reliably with the fact that it's literally rated to be lower wattage than the other fan, despite being rated as the same RPM. So it has nothing to do with PWM control, as this difference is consistent regardless of whether it's being driven by PWM or undervolting, or just a constant stream of 12 volts.
Post magically merged:

In the perfect world, 100% PWM speed and running straight would consume the same amount of power. PWM circuits should have very little waste amps.

Dear goodness, a 6500RPM 140x38? Yeah that's too much. I'd try to find some 3000-3500rpm or less. Something that can throttle down to real low PWM speeds. Unfortunately most in that form factor are server-class fans, so they go for max airflow.

For what it's worth, at max speed, the PWM version of the HHE was pretty much pulling the same power in PWM mode as DC mode. My reading of the wattage may have been too imprecise to really nail down the exact power usage. I mean come on. How easy is it to estimate half a watt using a Killawatt? :rofl:

Man I would KILL for some good, lower speed 140x38 Delta fans :rofl:
 
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Voodoo Rufus

Powder Junkie Moderator
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Indeed. I had a pair of FFB1212VHEs and the would run very quiet down to about 3V. And they could REALLY move the air when push/pull on a shrouded Thermochill radiator. 150CFM each if I remember.
 
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Max0r

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Indeed. I had a pair of FFB1212VHEs and the would run very quiet down to about 3V. And they could REALLY move the air when push/pull on a shrouded Thermochill radiator. 150CFM each if I remember.
Kinda tempted to try one now, but as it happens it turns out my friend still has at least one Delta Triblade 120x38 in the garage, buried somewhere. And unlike my triblade, who's bearing is in such poor condition it makes an awesome spin-down sound, that one is probably like new. I also requisitioned a 120x38 fan from my other friend's previous rig that was just sitting doing nothing and it turned out to be an actual Panaflo under their new label NMB-MAT. It feels/sounds exactly like a Panaflo, i.e. very very boring and just pushes air without really making a sound until you turn it near maximum. It's a medium power 0.45a. I have it running at 1500 RPM ~8.7 volts. I'm almost afraid to try replacing it with another triblade because right now, with some painstaking tweaking, the 5 fan set sounds perfect. However, I haven't tested what it will sound like with the glass side panel back on yet.
 

Voodoo Rufus

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I had the EFB tri blades too but wasn't as amused with them. I'd probably stick with the 7-blade AFB's for better P-Q characteristics.
 

Voodoo Rufus

Powder Junkie Moderator
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For 140x38mm 12V fans, I haven't found any PWM versions yet.

But I did find this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Q9K5LQ...olid=26QOGVFUV14Q9&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

It's a 2-pin fan, so one would need to splice in a 3 or 4 pin power connector and hook it to a fan controller of some kind. It pulls too much power for most mainboard 3 or 4 pin headers.

Then for just plain stupid loud and fast 120x38s, here's a couple PWM monsters:



They look like Delta copies to me.
 

WrkBoot

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First of all I really enjoyed the conversation in this thread. I have to ask, what part of the world do you live in the makes your computer roon so hot?
 
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Max0r

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For 140x38mm 12V fans, I haven't found any PWM versions yet.

But I did find this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Q9K5LQ...olid=26QOGVFUV14Q9&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

It's a 2-pin fan, so one would need to splice in a 3 or 4 pin power connector and hook it to a fan controller of some kind. It pulls too much power for most mainboard 3 or 4 pin headers.

Then for just plain stupid loud and fast 120x38s, here's a couple PWM monsters:



They look like Delta copies to me.

LMAO at the first one, copying the Delta triangle. It reminds me of some "Delta" triblades being sold on Amazon where they blur out the logo in the photographs. Yea, whatever you say buddy :rofl: Also the photograph with the *woosh* air effects, imagine Delta doing that :rofl:
2022-03-11_112254.png
Still, the price is right, and gotta give credit for adding in screws (with nuts!) and a good old chrome grill. But no RPM wire? Baaad.

But those PWM ones look pretty decent. Looks like Delta has some competition now. Probably won't be the never dying battle-axes that Deltas are, but I'm sure at the very least they're decent if you don't get a fake-new or bad one. And it's a more affordable price for those who aren't ready plunk down double for a Delta. Notice on the PWM models the GDSTIME has a +$5 premium for the faux-Delta triangle :rofl:

Also looks like someone in the reviews did what I did and put an Akasa ARGB ring box on top of their faux-Delta fan. Only difference is I didn't choose rainbow barf, and I'm going to cut up the shroud so bare LEDs can be seen, and the only parts left are what screw in to keep the LED strip/wires from falling out.
2022-03-11_114351.png

And you know what? Given that most people are likely going to run those below 30% of their max, the companies will never have to worry about making fans that can live up to their max specs at high longevity.

Very interesting finds indeed.

By the way, I just now realized what those counter-fin fan designs are for. It's to make the air go more straight instead of mostly blasting out sideways, right?
 
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Max0r

Max0r

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First of all I really enjoyed the conversation in this thread. I have to ask, what part of the world do you live in the makes your computer roon so hot?
Prepare for a massive rant, XD

Has less to do with where I live (except maybe humidity and more to do with the thermal/airflow properties of my room in this house, and how it interacts with the seasons and the ductwork in this house, and the fact that I refuse to keep my door open when I'm in the room doing my thing or sleeping. The rest of the house is much cooler than this room, and there is no return vent out of the room. If I actually OWNED this house I'd cut a return vent out and put some Deltas in it or something ^_^ If it gets warm enough outside, but cooler than in here, I can open the window to vent, but even then, to keep the light out I keep the shade down, which limits airflow. At night I open it up. But since the summers here get very humid, being in the Chicago area, sometimes the humidity can really put a damper on things, especially if there's no wind. Now, sometimes I have to close the windows and seal them tight, because during the spring/summer/fall there can sometimes be lawn mowers and leaf blowers going literally all day for 10 hours straight. I'm not gonna subject myself to that. If it gets warmer outside than inside, I have to close the window and depend on the AC. But the problem is, without a return coming out of the room, with the door closed, the AC is limited in its effect unless it gets run a lot more. Nonetheless, even without AC, just running the central air and having air blowing into the room helps a LOT to keep the temps from really building up. Additionally, the vent is right next to me under the desk, which means I have to deflect it away from me because it creates a severe cold spot that I find even more bothersome than generally too hot conditions. If the AC runs TOO MUCH, that cold spot gets so severe, that even when deflecting the air away, it becomes intolerable, and I may even have to close the vent somewhat to limit the airflow, which may actually be counterproductive because I'd probably get more cooling from just running the AC less and the air on 24/7 with it open all the way (the central air is still much cooler than the room, but without creating a cold spot).

Now, someone might consider the idea of, why not place the PC on top of the vent? It would likely absorb that cold spot and turn it into a normal temp spot, and maximize PC cooling. And you know what? With the small size of the case I got, the Pure Base 500DX (or XDDDD as I would call it), it WOULD fit there. Here's the problem. A lot of stuff goes through the vents sometimes that makes me close it. If my friend takes a shower, the vapors travel into my room and the smell of the shower drives me up the fucking wall. And that smell DOES NOT go away for many hours. It's also so moist, it might even over-moisturize the air coming into the case!!!!! Also sometimes air freshener products he uses travel through the vent and again, the smell drives me up the fucking wall. Also, he sometimes uses Febreeze in his room, or other noxious scented products, which again, give me a god damn head ache and drive me up the fucking wall. And when I say I have to close the vent when these things happen, I don't mean just close. I mean literally close and then seal and put a heavy weight on top of the entire thing, because if I don't, it makes NO DIFFERENCE. And guess what... THAT MAKES MY ROOM EVEN HOTTER :rofl::bang head

And so, knowing I may have to do an emergency seal of the vent at any given moment at the drop of a hat? Kind of disincentivizes me to place the PC there. Instead, I painstakingly found a way to place it on a relatively unused edge of my desk where it could exhaust toward the window (never a bad thing, even if the window isn't even always open, and even if the airflow is almost always into the window and trying to blow out the room's door, the opposite direction, but still, the PC cools down massively if there's a cool spot by the window).

Oh did I mention? During the summers while I'm sleeping I turn the temperature target lower on the AC which massively ramps up the electric bill and I'm the one who spends the extra $ because I'm the only one trying to run it that low. I have non-24hour disorder, which means sometimes I sleep all day instead of night. That also means I'm maxing out the AC at the WORST POSSIBLE TIME. But also, it sometimes means I'm subjected to the worst possible heat + using my computer/monitors at the worst possible time while awake >_< Because I can stand 82 degree F temps while I'm awake, but when it's time to sleep? I want it as cool as possible. And since I'm no longer sitting by the vent, I can open it up completely and not care about the cold spot. But the problem is that depending on how much wattage of heat is going into the room (mini-fridge, computer, fans to cool myself with, monitors), that blast of cool air coming in has to compete with that (and possibly with heat coming from the window bleeding through the glass, if it's hot enough) and the less imbalance there is toward the cold side, the more hours it takes for temps to stabilize at a low enough level not to interfere with my sleep :bang head:bang head
IMG_20220309_040422.jpg
See where that mountain dew ice (shitty flavor will never drink again) 12 pack is sitting under the desk? On top of a multi-layered folded up towel? That's my vent seal! And I use it during the winter to keep the HEATING out. And you damn well better bet your *** I'm paying a much smaller share of the heating bill. Also note the computer on the right has a window behind it. I keep the curtain down always to keep the daylight out. It drives me nuts (i prefer it dark in here, light in the room is only on to show the desk, I usually have it off) and glares the monitors. The ONE advantage I have is keeping the room in darkness, aside from being comforting to me, also lets me minimize my monitor brightness. So with all monitors on, I'm only using 177~ watts or so, instead of something like 281 watts at max brightness. Granted, even with daylight coming in, a couple of these monitors, the 30" HP in particular, can still hurt my eyes if they're showing white at high brightness.
IMG_20220309_044013.jpg

Aside from my monitors, this is the only light source I use when I'm on my *** doing some computin' -- A 2.7 watt RGB bulb with some coolish white light shining down onto my desk, and a little nice border effects on the monitors as well. I wouldn't mind finding a way to mount more like this to my left/right to illuminate more of the desk in a similar way. But everything is set up so the light only spots down onto the desk surface area, and not onto surrounding walls. All by design :rofl: So that should show you just how much I hate letting light in.

And WrkBoot, I sincerely hope you're getting as much enjoyment out of my rants as I do. There's a reason why I go completely over the top in these threads. It's because I know that my individual problems, challenges and triumphs will mean nothing with time, in the forum. But the entertainment value of these shitshows is eternal!:attn::rock:
 

Voodoo Rufus

Powder Junkie Moderator
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Yes, the stator vanes are for straightening the flow and reducing the rotation of the air coming out.

Looks like the big 140x38 has issues on PWM or linear control according to the reviews. I might volunteer to be a Guinea pig on this. If I can find some 3d printed shrouds these things would be nuts on my GTX280 radiator. Not sure it'll be a good sub for my push pull noctua setup though on a noise basis.
 

Voodoo Rufus

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Guinea pig mode engage! Coolerguys had a 3-pin version of the 140x38mm at a reasonable fan speed.

The Deltas I'll want to put on my GTX240 radiator when I find a use for it again.

1647038478730.png
 

Voodoo Rufus

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Well they didn't have the Deltas in stock so I'm just getting the 140mm monsters. ETA Friday.
 
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Max0r

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In a conveniently perfect twist of fate, the Lamptron 3-pin extensions are all defective, so I harvested a smaller amount of them from the same old build I'm harvesting two 80x38mm fans from. THis forced me to move some fans to motherboard headers, conveniently ones that do not really seriously add or take away from the 24/7 sound profile I desire, so I can control them for minimum speed or even full off when they are not needed. PWM AFB HHE is on PWM now, in middle rad front intake positon. Panaflo directly behind it pulling on the rad is on motherboard control. 80mm GPU area exhaust is on motherboard control. These three fans are optional for sound and for cooling. They are only needed when things start getting hot and do not really add to the sound unless they go past a certain RPM. Actually, the 120's can add some desired fullness to the sound when they ramp up to a certain degree, and there is enough flexibility in the soundscape to account for it and always sound good every step of the way, up to a maximum speed that would be too harsh or have weird resonances (as opposed to good resonances). The best part is, the CPU based BIOS fan curves can be replaced in OS by at least 1-2 good pieces of software, one of which I've already been experimenting with all day, and be tied to other things like the GPU. And if that software fails, the CPU based curves will still get the job done, just not as precisely.

There is one last fan I have room to finagle into a motherboard header, which is not necessary to run 24/7 for the sound and is only needed when things heat up.

In total there will be 7 fans on automatic control based on temperatures not counting the stock GPU fans. In a perfect world they'd all be PWM but only one is. The fact that the mobo headers are less efficient for DC control than the Lamptron at lower power levels is sad, but will be made up for by minimizing the RPMS, or even power-on time, of these fans on autopilot. Three fans will remain @ a fixed speed all the time on the Lamptron, as they are the absolutely necessary to achieve the correct sound, AND based on positioning/power, they also carry a much more core burden of cooling, acting as the first line of defense (first push/pull fan position where hot CPU liquid goes into the radiator, and the bottom intake with the HDD cage). These are two places where never slowing things down from their chosen acoustic profile is wise. The pull Triblade running at 2400 RPM pulls huge amounts of heat off the radiator before it travels down any further, when there's some load. This is good because I want less heat by the time it reaches the HDD cage intake, and even when doing a 230 watt prime run, the radiator already gets much cooler by the time it gets down there you can hardly feel any noticeable heat, let alone real warmth. In realworld scenarios likely no discernable heat will reach down there which is good because those HGSTs run hottt and the cage is in terrible need of a haircut. The fact that the 3 more wasteful fans are on the most efficient controller is icing on the cake.

In time I should be able to create the ultimate BIOS and software profiles to maximize power/heat savings and bring forth incredible temp lowering and stabilizing cooling power when needed while still maintaining my preferred acoustic profile. At most, at my chosen maximum or near maximum speeds, certain fans will add a "fullness" to the sound and in one or two cases, even an additional favorable resonance at my chosen maximum. But before reaching those speeds, they will not really add anything discernable to the sound, and so they are free to occupy any RPM in the range from zero to that without interfering with the sound, which is good because they can be controlled for just enough cooling and maximum power saving. Because there are so many fans and I figured out which ones are good for what, at this point there is pretty much no cooling job this case can't completely annihilate with ease within this configuration, even at high room temps, and I know which ones are doing almost nothing in various situations to actually contribute to cooling, but only become important in relatively extreme situations.

So for instance, if both the GPU and CPU were fully saturated, which I'm not sure would be possible without hanging up various programs, this setup would deal with that with ease even if the room got to the mid 80's F. I'd reckon even with a good amount of dust buildup it would be stable, although the temps might no longer be very nice. All of this of course, is before experimenting with undervolting the CPU/GPU. If they are silicon lottery winners or at least tryhards, this can help shave a lot of watts and degrees off, hopefully without running into any realworld usage bottlenecks. But this CPU is not just destroying my old one in terms of raw physical power. It seems to be just process things more efficiently with what it has. Stuff that used to saturate a majority of multiple cores on the 7700k is just raising up the ecore saturation a bit and maybe spiking a fraction of a P core, and all of this is being handled PERFECTLY in WIndows 10! INSANE!