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Mandrake4565

Mr. Clean Senior Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
i want to try to run my original 300w psu because i simply do not want to spend more than i have to (and no i do not want to burn up the new board or any other components, but i will risk it for my learning experience).
Dopemoney, this is the only part I disagree with you on. I get that you want to build to a budget and have no qualms with that. My issue is twofold one the OEM power supply may not run the setup due to changes in the newer arcetecture. Your best bet would be to take a picture of the side of the Psu so we can see exactly what it is. Second as previously mentioned, if the PSU fails it could take out the rest of the system with it or worse. We have seen them also catch on fire and do damage to ones home as well.

Another option for you to think about is going with an AMD Apu which has on board graphics. Therefore you only need to get an APU and Motherboard. Here is an example.
Capture.PNG
 
OP
dopemoney

dopemoney

Registered
Joined
Nov 28, 2015
this is my power supply. i opened the case and confirmed, same same:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-505B-MT-...445877?hash=item4d3b10e975:g:39wAAOSwwTlUrFya

i did read that hp oem parts can be reliable and stable, but that they nearly always only provide enough power to run stock components.

how would this do for my new components:
http://www.amazon.com/-Power-420W-2...=UTF8&qid=1448984630&sr=1-3&keywords=psu+matx

i read that a-power's products are decent quality (plus it comes with a 3yr warranty) but that their customer service sucks. it is more power than the oem and i think it has the necessary connectors for my hdd (which i think is a SATA III, not a II). it is serial ata-300 series, 3gb/s)

unfortunately, i do not have friends or know people that build or customize computers, at all. i simply decided that i wanted to be more knowledgeable regarding computer hardware and performance.

the gt730 offers a 2gb ddr5 model and i think that is the best bang for my buck. do you think this is a misprint? i know errors are frequently seen in amazon product descriptions.
http://www.amazon.com/EVGA-GeForce-Profile-Graphics-02G-P3-3733-KR/dp/B00L5GZG5C

it has high band width and 900 cuda cores. i do not know what a cuda core is yet. i will read up on that.

thank you so much for the tech information. i am going to start reading more on these topics.
 

Mandrake4565

Mr. Clean Senior Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
this is my power supply. i opened the case and confirmed, same same:


i did read that hp oem parts can be reliable and stable, but that they nearly always only provide enough power to run stock components.
Yes some OEM units can be reliable but capacitors age and fail. That unit being from 2009 is getting long in the tooth.

I would get this unit over the one you linked.



the gt730 offers a 2gb ddr5 model and i think that is the best bang for my buck. do you think this is a misprint? i know errors are frequently seen in amazon product descriptions.
http://www.amazon.com/EVGA-GeForce-Profile-Graphics-02G-P3-3733-KR/dp/B00L5GZG5C
No I do not feel it's a misprint and if it's the best that fits in the budget then I see no reason not to buy it.

Did you have a look at the components I posted above? That may be a good solution for you and you wouldn't need a discrete graphics card.
 
OP
dopemoney

dopemoney

Registered
Joined
Nov 28, 2015
ok. so i had a chance to look at the APU route. specifically, the one you posted. it looks promising. most everything i read indicated that it performs well compared higher priced cpus and same thing with gpu (although with gpu it looks like it performs like a good "entry-level gpu," but hey, the gt730 is an entry-level card as well. but is the a8-7600 up-gradable? are AMD's APUs future proof for at least the next 5-7yrs or so?

so if i do consider that route, i get the board, get the apu, and then all i would need is the power supply still?

in theory, would this setup compete with the asrock 970m, fx6300, gt730. i know that's nearly impossible to say for sure, but an honest shot in the dark will suffice here.
 

PetrolHead

Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2015
i read that a-power's products are decent quality (plus it comes with a 3yr warranty) but that their customer service sucks. it is more power than the oem and i think it has the necessary connectors for my hdd (which i think is a SATA III, not a II). it is serial ata-300 series, 3gb/s)

I forgot to mention some good news: The minimum PSU requirement for the GT 730 (according to NVIDIA) is 300W, so in theory the GPU at least doesn't need more. However, getting a new one still isn't a bad idea, since the wattage isn't the only thing that matters. The bad thing about that OEM PSU is that you probably won't find out how much steady current the +12V rail(s) can provide. You can read more about the subject here:

http://www.newegg.com/product/CategoryIntelligenceArticle.aspx?articleId=199



the gt730 offers a 2gb ddr5 model and i think that is the best bang for my buck. do you think this is a misprint? i know errors are frequently seen in amazon product descriptions.
http://www.amazon.com/EVGA-GeForce-Profile-Graphics-02G-P3-3733-KR/dp/B00L5GZG5C

it has high band width and 900 cuda cores. i do not know what a cuda core is yet. i will read up on that.

I checked EVGA's site and it doesn't seem to be a misprint. EVGA is a good brand as well AFAIK, so I definitely think that's decent value for money.

CUDA itself is a parallel computing platform. CUDA cores are the hardware units that this platform uses and in very rough terms the more CUDA cores a GPU has, the faster it can perform these computations. Games don't necessarily take advantage of all that CUDA cores can do, but as they're basically the evolution of what was once called shader units (or something similar), their amount has an effect on gaming performance as well.

Mandrake4546's suggestion of getting an AMD APU isn't bad either if you're looking for bang for buck. The processor is slower than an FX-6300, and the R7 doesn't perform as well as a GT 730 (at least not in 3D Mark), but you'd save some money and still have the option to get a separate GPU later on, if you so wish.

Edit: I didn't notice you had posted while I was writing. I'll give my two cents on the subject later on.
 
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PetrolHead

Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2015
ok. so i had a chance to look at the APU route. specifically, the one you posted. it looks promising. most everything i read indicated that it performs well compared higher priced cpus and same thing with gpu (although with gpu it looks like it performs like a good "entry-level gpu," but hey, the gt730 is an entry-level card as well. but is the a8-7600 up-gradable? are AMD's APUs future proof for at least the next 5-7yrs or so?

I doubt you can call any current AMD processor that future proof. The AM3+ socket is essentially dead and waiting to be replaced (hopefully during the year 2016), even though the FX-series is far from useless. The FM2+ socket may have a bit more life left in it. The newest APU (A10-7870K) was released in May and that would be an upgrade to the A8-7600. However, as a CPU that A10 is still slower than an FX-6300 - or even an FX-4300 - based on the little research I had time to do, so an FX-6300 will probably keep you going longer without the need to upgrade than any APU you might find. And while you can get a discrete GPU to go with the APU and thus increase its gaming performance, it will not get quite as much out of better GPUs as the FX-6300. The ace up APU's sleeve is that when that integrated R7 is not in use, it's GPU cores are available for other tasks (a very neat feature IMO). The downside is that I don't know of any software that actually takes advantage of this, nor will there likely be very wide support for it.

APUs are good value if you can't afford a discrete GPU, in which case they can sometimes best similarly priced Intel processors and their integrated graphics chips in gaming performance. However, even if the GT 730 is an entry-level GPU, it will still probably outperform the A10's R7 (which has two more GPU cores - 8 in total - than the A8, and is thus somewhat faster). For example in 3D Mark's Firestrike test, the A10-7870K scores roughly 1500 points, whereas the GT 730 combined with an Intel Pentium G3220 - which is a slower CPU than the A10, but comparable to the A8 in Futuremark's tests - scores roughly 1800 points. This is just one synthetic test and may not be the whole truth about real-world performance, though. Also, that 300 point difference isn't quite as big as it might sound - neither can really run that test at speeds that are pleasing to the eye.

I'm not sure what your needs regarding your PC are, but while the FX-6300 combined with the GT 730 should perform notably better than the A8-7600, the A8 should still be a decent CPU for everyday use. AMD will hopefully realease Zen by the end of next year, so you could just opt for the cheapest system now, use it for testing anything you can think of and see what are its weak points are regarding what _you_ want to do with your system. At the end of the day, both the FX-6300/GT 730 and the A8-7600 may spark a hunger for something really powerful and at that point the extra performance of the former combo doesn't really matter much, as your new rig will probably blow both out of the water.

So, in short, the APU setup will in all likelihood be the slower one. However, both setups will be notably faster than your current setup. If you want to stay as close to your initial budget and start saving for a proper rig, I wouldn't consider the APU setup a bad choice. After all, you can always beef it up a bit by buying a discrete graphics card.

P.S. If you want to consider the APU option, I suggest you read up on the other APUs as well, and not just the A8-7600. If you want to learn about overclocking, you should look for "unlocked" CPUs, which are a bit easier to overclock.

P.P.S. Now that I've been reading up on the APUs, I sort of want to build an APU rig someday just to see what they can do. x)
 
OP
dopemoney

dopemoney

Registered
Joined
Nov 28, 2015
going the apu route, if i run win7 pro 32bit, can i only run 4gb max? or is that just a disclaimer they have to make?

i am strongly considering the apu route. i found that exact same board for $73, the apu is $89, and then the power supply would be another $40. plus, even though the the board bios will not support overclocking, the built-in software will, so that's a win.

it does say that it supports cpus UP TO 4 cores. does that mean that if i decide down the road to get a 6-8 core AMD i will need a new board again?
 

Dr. McCoy

Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
going the apu route, if i run win7 pro 32bit, can i only run 4gb max? or is that just a disclaimer they have to make?

i am strongly considering the apu route. i found that exact same board for $73, the apu is $89, and then the power supply would be another $40. plus, even though the the board bios will not support overclocking, the built-in software will, so that's a win.

it does say that it supports cpus UP TO 4 cores. does that mean that if i decide down the road to get a 6-8 core AMD i will need a new board again?

The largest core count in FM2+ is a quad so it's OK unless AMD makes a hex core or better later on but doubt seriously anything like that would ever appear.
Also know the FM2+ chips do not OC as far or in the same way as an AM3+..... It's done like an Intel with more or less all multiplier, little to no FSB speed involved.

The APUs themselves run hotter than a comparable AM3+ does with the extra compute cores/units made into it, obviously AM3+ chips won't have these.

Good thing is these APUs as you've noticed are cheap and useable for everyday stuff. These aren't exactly powerhouse gaming chips since an AM3+ can outgame one no prob, the main draw with an APU is the fact it's cheap yet good for what the majority of computer users do with their machines. The bulit-in GPU makes getting one appealing and makes for one less component to buy in doing a setup.

Personally I'm not "Impressed" with these since I'm used to OC'ing AM3+ chips but I can't complain either with all else considered.
If you can get a stable 4.5GHz OC from one of these and it doesn't crash no matter wha you're doing with it, I'd call it a win.

My 7870K will go past 5.0 GHz but makes a bit of a fuss doing it........ 5.1 it really complains....... I want 5.2?
Forget it.

Mind you the board you've selected if it's the one Mandrake showed is a good deal on one, personally I got the CBR board and it's got about every feature you could want with one of these.
 

PetrolHead

Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2015
going the apu route, if i run win7 pro 32bit, can i only run 4gb max? or is that just a disclaimer they have to make?

It's not just a disclaimer. The Windows 7 Pro 32-bit itself refuses to understand more than 4 GB of RAM, even though on some hardware it might be technically possible. If you had Windows 7 Starter 32-bit, it would only understand 2 GB of RAM.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_GB_barrier

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/li...=vs.85).aspx#physical_memory_limits_windows_7

it does say that it supports cpus UP TO 4 cores. does that mean that if i decide down the road to get a 6-8 core AMD i will need a new board again?

Yes, but as Dr. McCoy already said, at the moment there are no FM2+ socket CPUs with more than four cores.

By the way, this might be a good time to point out that not all cores are the same kind of cores. A core in my Phenom II X6 is not the same thing as a core in a Kaveri APU, which in turn is not the same thing as a core in a Bulldozer FX-processor. The latter two are more closely related, though, and both use a modular construction, where one module contains two "cores". A four core Kaveri APU contains thus two modules, and an eight core FX-processor contains four modules. The newest APUs have in fact a slightly better microarchitecture compared to the newer (Piledriver) FX-processors, but the gains are not enough to account for the lack of modules compared to the more efficient FX-processors. The reason I said "cores" before is that one module contains two integer cores, but only one floating point unit and shared L2 cache, whereas in my Phenom II each core has its own integer core, own floating point unit and own L2 cache. This does not necessarily mean two Phenom II cores are faster than one Kaveri/Bulldozer module, but it does mean that the definition of a core may be context dependent. AMD has actually been sued for calling its processors octa-cores:

http://wccftech.com/amd-class-action-lawsuit-bulldozer-processor-core-count/

Not that I think this should affect your decision. Whether or not a Kaveri APU is a true quad-core, or only performs like one (or almost like one), is largely irrelevant. I just thought you might find this interesting.
 
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dopemoney

dopemoney

Registered
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Nov 28, 2015
thank you. i have received a substantial amount of information lately that i needed to learn. i still have quite a bit more to read and research. i am back to leaning more towards the individual component setup, asrock - fx6300 - gt730 2gb ddr5 - EVGA 430w psu.

this setup will run roughly $50 more than the apu route; however, i think it will perform better in both practical desktop software applications and gaming. the fx6300 was only just introduced in the last qtr of 2012 and still has a large following. not sure what my upgrade options will be with the asrock 970M down the road. if i am willing to spend good money, is there a "best" am3/am3+ cpu?

if i have the win7pro key, can i get the 64-bit version anytime i want? is the 64-bit version as stable as the 32-bit version?
 

Bluefalcon13

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Location
Colorado Springs, CO
I had an A10-7870k, and I was quite impressed with its performance just on IGP.

That being said, the FX with a small dedicated card does give you room to grow. That CPU can handle larger GFX cards with ease.
 

PetrolHead

Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2015
this setup will run roughly $50 more than the apu route; however, i think it will perform better in both practical desktop software applications and gaming. the fx6300 was only just introduced in the last qtr of 2012 and still has a large following. not sure what my upgrade options will be with the asrock 970M down the road. if i am willing to spend good money, is there a "best" am3/am3+ cpu?

Well, the fastest CPU for that socket is an FX-9590, but the 970M Pro3 does not support it. It seems, in fact, that out of the motherboards that supposedly support that processor, only a few can actually handle it and even then getting it to run at even stock speeds may need some work. The fastest CPU that the 970M Pro3 officially supports is an FX-8370 - and this is probably also the best AM3+ processor for anyone looking for something that works straight out of the box - but I am not sure if the VRM design can actually handle that CPU reliably. I think the FX-6300 might well be the "sweet spot" for this particular motherboard, although I must point out that I've no actual experience on running anything other than a Phenom II X6 on this board. If you'd wish to pair the fastest possible octa-core with this motherboard, I would probably suggest to start with the FX-8370E and then seeing how much you can OC it. The downside is that those CPUs are overpriced considering the performance they offer at stock speeds.

if i have the win7pro key, can i get the 64-bit version anytime i want? is the 64-bit version as stable as the 32-bit version?

The 64-bit version should work as well as the 32-bit version. In normal use you won't even notice which version you're using (unless the small amount of RAM is a problem). I am not a 100% sure of Microsoft's policy, but I think the 32-bit key only works for the 32-bit version and you need to buy a new license to get the 64-bit version.
 

Bluefalcon13

Member
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Jan 1, 2008
Location
Colorado Springs, CO
...I would probably suggest to start with the FX-8370E and then seeing how much you can OC it. The downside is that those CPUs are overpriced considering the performance they offer at stock speeds.

<Snip>

Just FYI, the 8320E was $109.99 @ microcenter not long ago. Donno if they are still around that price. Or if you are near a microcenter. Those are in store prices.
 
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dopemoney

dopemoney

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Nov 28, 2015
Thanks to all of you for the input and information assistance. I appreciate it very much. In addition to the components listed below, I have decided to switch to 64bit version of Windows 7 Pro so that I can increase my RAM capacity. In case any of you were not already aware, Windows licenses are generally valid for either the 32bit or the 64bit version, just not both. For my very first build:

Board: Asrock 970M Pro3 AM3+ mATX
CPU: AMD FX6300 Black Edition
GPU: EVGA GeForce GT 730 2GB GDDR5 64bit (via HDMI to a 22" UpStar)
PSU: EVGA 100-W1-0430-KR 430W ATX12V / EPS12V 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Continuous Power
RAM: G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB
-----
$290.00

While this is considerably more than my initial $150.00 budget, I am confident that I will get great bang-for-buck. I will tread lightly with CPU overclock settings because I know very little about component relationships yet, but I think after turning off cool'n'quiet and turbo, I can operate 24/7 safely at 4.4-4.5ghz @ 1.45v and bus speed around 210mhz. From what I have read, with these settings I should never get hotter than 50C even with stock cooler.

I will post an update in a couple of months and let everyone know how things are performing. Thanks again!
 

PetrolHead

Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2015
Best of luck with the OC project! Don't forget to use and enjoy what you've bought. :)

P.S. Make sure your Windows 7 has the hotfixes available for FX-series CPUs. Namely:

-The scheduler update (KB2645594)
-The core parking scheduler update (KB2646060)

The early Windows 7 scheduler didn't really know how to get the best out of the Bulldozer architecture and these hotfixes should remedy the situation.