Do i need TWO D5 pumps?

[ATMINSIDE]

I agree with you, as the OP does not mention overclocking at all in the opening post, however, EarthDog brought the overclocking comment into the thread, thus the reason for my comment.

EarthDog said:


And I am saying it depends on how far of an overclock is intended as to whether one of the 480s is enough.

I thought that was very clear.

I have no problem suggesting overclocking of a 6800K and 1070/1080 on one of those 480 rads.
You're talking 400W worst case scenario, even overclocked.

 

[Silver Surfer]

I have no problem suggesting overclocking of a 6800K and 1070/1080 on one of those 480 rads.
You're talking 400W worst case scenario, even overclocked.

So just how far are you suggesting overclocking here?

 

[ATMINSIDE]

So just how far are you suggesting overclocking here?

The limits of ambient (i.e. not chilled water).

 

[LawShadow]

That may be true but that does not mean it is one of the best cooling performers out there look at the EK Supremacy EVO acetal/copper, in my own testing it actually beat the XSPC Raystorm by 5c, under the exact same testing parameters.

One D5 pump would be sufficient even if you went with both rads together the flow restriction you are concerned about is actually irrelevant to the D5s capability as both rads are round tubing rads.

However the thing you think is a good quality of no flux from soldering IMO is not, that's why we all flush out our rads before putting them into service to flush out any debri from the manufacturing process.

To construct a radiator solder free requires each tube end to be rubber O-ring sealed which means each tube end has to extend into the end cap a certain amount, which produces turbulence in the end cap. and turbulence adds to flow restriction in that scenario.

Soldered tube ends are smoother fitted to the mating surface that joins the end cap, so in my personal opinion I would rather have a soldered rad, as for longevity there is a possibility of rubber O-ring failure, we see rubber O-rings fail all the time.

But that's your choice.



The Radical 4 is 75mm thick frame meaning the actual core is about 65mm allowing for the screw clearance on each side of the rad, the Monsta 480 is an 86mm thick frame, which has approximately a 76mm core thickness, so the Radical 4 is not thicker than a Monsta 480, or for that matter any of the Monsta rads.

Thanks for the reply,

True on the round tube rads they use on every end of the tubes an o-ring judging from the pictures i have seen from the inner workings of the AMS rad. I also skimped through various foreign threads regarding the AMS rad that are indeed one of he most cleanest rads out there. Not to say one has no need to clean them infact i will clean them flush them with warm distilled water and some sysclean-hpd. Will do also with the EK-ZMT tubing cleaning that is. Hopefully this rad won't give me issues regarding gunk even after i flushed my rad properly (conventional flat tube rads) it might over time still contain crap that ends up in ones loop. Clean system for atleast a year before i tear it down for maintenance.

As some have asked regarding overclocking yes im planning to overclock my upcoming i7-6800k it seems that 4.4ghz on those cpu's is max according to feedback. Same but not sure on the gpu...gonna have to see if i actually need to o.c. the gpu, which i doubt i will...and the possibility of SLI setup...

True i made a mistake about the thickness of the radical 4 rads in comparison with the Alphacool Monsta rads.

No longer will i use two of those rads and just ordered a single Aquacomputer AMS 840 full copper rad (6 x 140): this one has 2 circuits the one ordered is single circuit btw.



Talked to Sven from Aquacomputer prior to ordering and asked him if the rad could be free from imperfections like bend fins etc so he offered me a custom build with no additional cost only downside is the time approx 2 or 3 weeks before receiving the rad.
After my mistake with the 360 Monsta rad cooling cpu and gpu i went ahead and got my self a bit of an overkill radiator but this should offer me the headroom for overclocking or sli setup and silence running 600rpm to 800rpm fans to which this rad is optimized for.

Indeed the Heatkiller IV basic acetal is one of the least restrictive cpu blocks out there but still cools good. Its not 100% going with that block still doubting between that or Heatkiller IV pro or the upcoming Koolance CPU-390i or even the EK Evo since that one guarantees the use of Bitspower 1/2 x 3/4 compression fittings unlike the Heatkiller IV...that shouldnt be a problem since opting for EK-ZMT tubing with spring clamps from koolance which do look nice for clamps:



Judging from the tightness of the koolance clamps on ZMT tubing it grips better then any compression i have used.

Going to post temps from stock as well as overclocked for both idle and full load on both cpu and gpu as well as flow chart to see its gpm. If anyone is interested in that...once i have the new rig running.

 

[cdawall]

I have no problem suggesting overclocking of a 6800K and 1070/1080 on one of those 480 rads.
You're talking 400W worst case scenario, even overclocked.

I completely agree. A single 480 can handle the load of whatever the maximum overclock you will get out of a 6800K and 1080 without issue assuming the proper fans are used. A single cheap MCR220 can handle a 6800K at max clocks comfortably, adding a 1080 and much higher quality rad makes this an obvious non-issue to run both.

 

[Silver Surfer]

The limits of ambient (i.e. not chilled water).

The lower the deltaT which is dependent on the radiator cooling field, the further the overclock, and I am not referring to chilled water cooling

 

[ATMINSIDE]

The lower the deltaT which is dependent on the radiator cooling field, the further the overclock, and I am not referring to chilled water cooling

Yes, I realize this. And I'm saying it would be plenty low to push both the CPU and GPU.
You're the only one here who seems to have a problem with a 6800K and 1080 on a single 480... how about some math as to why?

 

[Silver Surfer]

Thanks for the reply,

True on the round tube rads they use on every end of the tubes an o-ring judging from the pictures i have seen from the inner workings of the AMS rad. I also skimped through various foreign threads regarding the AMS rad that are indeed one of he most cleanest rads out there. Not to say one has no need to clean them infact i will clean them flush them with warm distilled water and some sysclean-hpd. Will do also with the EK-ZMT tubing cleaning that is. Hopefully this rad won't give me issues regarding gunk even after i flushed my rad properly (conventional flat tube rads) it might over time still contain crap that ends up in ones loop. Clean system for atleast a year before i tear it down for maintenance.

As some have asked regarding overclocking yes im planning to overclock my upcoming i7-6800k it seems that 4.4ghz on those cpu's is max according to feedback. Same but not sure on the gpu...gonna have to see if i actually need to o.c. the gpu, which i doubt i will...and the possibility of SLI setup...

True i made a mistake about the thickness of the radical 4 rads in comparison with the Alphacool Monsta rads.

No longer will i use two of those rads and just ordered a single Aquacomputer AMS 840 full copper rad (6 x 140): this one has 2 circuits the one ordered is single circuit btw.

View attachment 180115

Talked to Sven from Aquacomputer prior to ordering and asked him if the rad could be free from imperfections like bend fins etc so he offered me a custom build with no additional cost only downside is the time approx 2 or 3 weeks before receiving the rad.
After my mistake with the 360 Monsta rad cooling cpu and gpu i went ahead and got my self a bit of an overkill radiator but this should offer me the headroom for overclocking or sli setup and silence running 600rpm to 800rpm fans to which this rad is optimized for.

Indeed the Heatkiller IV basic acetal is one of the least restrictive cpu blocks out there but still cools good. Its not 100% going with that block still doubting between that or Heatkiller IV pro or the upcoming Koolance CPU-390i or even the EK Evo since that one guarantees the use of Bitspower 1/2 x 3/4 compression fittings unlike the Heatkiller IV...that shouldnt be a problem since opting for EK-ZMT tubing with spring clamps from koolance which do look nice for clamps:

View attachment 180116

Judging from the tightness of the koolance clamps on ZMT tubing it grips better then any compression i have used.

Going to post temps from stock as well as overclocked for both idle and full load on both cpu and gpu as well as flow chart to see its gpm. If anyone is interested in that...once i have the new rig running.

Wow that is one long radiator, what are your mounting plans for that?

My personal experience with a Alphacool Monsta is it does deliver, but not with 600rpm ~ 700rpm cooling fans, because it is just too thick, to really perform the Monsta takes high static pressure cooling fans, that's the real downside as they are loud.

I am presently cooling my CPU with a Watercool MO-RA3 with feet standing alone running 4 180mm Silverstone cooling fans, it allows my 3770K maximum stable overclock at 4.9ghz but load temperatures are higher than I want so I'm running it at 4.8ghz.

My GPU a GTX Titan is cooled by a single 180 Monsta, which I experimented with different speed cooling fans until I found just what the Monsta was looking for in static pressure it needs at least approximately a estimated 4 static pressure to really shine and more is even better.

Yes, I realize this. And I'm saying it would be plenty low to push both the CPU and GPU.
You're the only one here who seems to have a problem with a 6800K and 1080 on a single 480... how about some math as to why?

If you are satisfied with the overclocking results of running a 6800K and a 1080 on a single 480 radiator, that's all that matters for you, I simply am not satisfied with that low of an overclock headroom.

 

[ATMINSIDE]

If you are satisfied with the overclocking results of running a 6800K and a 1080 on a single 480 radiator, that's all that matters for you, I simply am not satisfied with that low of an overclock headroom.

Not sure what you mean by low headroom, it would easily get the 6800K to ~4.5GHz (typically where these are topping out on ambient).
And the 1080 should push at least 2200MHz (assuming a good sample) with that amount of cooling.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Not sure what you mean by low headroom, it would easily get the 6800K to ~4.5GHz (typically where these are topping out on ambient).
And the 1080 should push at least 2200MHz (assuming a good sample) with that amount of cooling.

~4.5ghz, Well you just made my point for me, Thank You!

It has been about 4 years since I was satisfied with a 4.5ghz CPU overclock, that's why I run 2 independent loops to isolate the GPU and CPU load from each other.

But that's my choice and my prerogative, and nothing that you say will change that.

So are we done sidetracking this thread?

 

[ATMINSIDE]

~4.5ghz, Well you just made my point for me, Thank You!

It has been about 4 years since I was satisfied with a 4.5ghz CPU overclock, that's why I run 2 independent loops to isolate the GPU and CPU load from each other.

But that's my choice and my prerogative, and nothing that you say will change that.

So are we done sidetracking this thread?

Good luck running a 6800K higher than 4.5GHz for 24/7 without getting into the range of voltage degradation.

 

[GTXJackBauer]

 

[LawShadow]

Wow that is one long radiator, what are your mounting plans for that?

My personal experience with a Alphacool Monsta is it does deliver, but not with 600rpm ~ 700rpm cooling fans, because it is just too thick, to really perform the Monsta takes high static pressure cooling fans, that's the real downside as they are loud.

I am presently cooling my CPU with a Watercool MO-RA3 with feet standing alone running 4 180mm Silverstone cooling fans, it allows my 3770K maximum stable overclock at 4.9ghz but load temperatures are higher than I want so I'm running it at 4.8ghz.

My GPU a GTX Titan is cooled by a single 180 Monsta, which I experimented with different speed cooling fans until I found just what the Monsta was looking for in static pressure it needs at least approximately a estimated 4 static pressure to really shine and more is even better.

Yeah its a long one indeed planning to mount it on my rear case with a heavy duty "radbox" and additional support with spacers. If that is not an option i then use Koolance QD4 on the rad so it can freely stand.

As a side note the radiator you are using the Watercool Mora-RA3 4x180mm uses so it appears the same construct as the Aquacomputer AMS rad meaning it to uses round tubes which means it to uses o-rings to each rounded tube so basically no solder flux in your rad as well. But i can be wrong judging from close up pictures of your radiator. Watercool rads are pretty much the same as the Aquacomputer rads most of them anyway.

Yeah, i used low rpm fans on my Monsta rad push/pull but even then the temps weren't that super....and running high rpm fans would negate the whole idea of silent build with water cooling...

 

[Silver Surfer]

Yeah its a long one indeed planning to mount it on my rear case with a heavy duty "radbox" and additional support with spacers. If that is not an option i then use Koolance QD4 on the rad so it can freely stand.

As a side note the radiator you are using the Watercool Mora-RA3 4x180mm uses so it appears the same construct as the Aquacomputer AMS rad meaning it to uses round tubes which means it to uses o-rings to each rounded tube so basically no solder flux in your rad as well. But i can be wrong judging from close up pictures of your radiator. Watercool rads are pretty much the same as the Aquacomputer rads most of them anyway.

Yeah, i used low rpm fans on my Monsta rad push/pull but even then the temps weren't that super....and running high rpm fans would negate the whole idea of silent build with water cooling...

The soldering of the Watercool MO-RA3 is a good catch regarding the round tube and I'm pretty sure it is soldered from looking inside the end cap when I first flushed it out for service about 3 years ago but in my internet searching to see one way or the other if it was soldered or not, I ran across this, what do you think?

https://forum.aquacomputer.de/weitere-foren/english-forum/103319-considering-a-airplex-gigant-3360/

Good luck running a 6800K higher than 4.5GHz for 24/7 without getting into the range of voltage degradation.

Obviously I struck some kind of nerve with my comments?

Any increased overclocking voltage at all is accelerating degradation, which is an acceptable side effect to any of us that overclock, it truly depends on just how far you desire to go!

Why use voltage degradation as an excuse on a CPU that has not even been on the market long enough to even know for sure what it's daily run voltage limits even are when it relates to CPU overclock longevity?

My comments regarding lower DeltaT allowing higher overclocks seem to be past common acceptable knowledge here, which I am baffled by since this is Overclockers.com.

Water cooling with radiators is not simply a cookie cutter setup, unless you have zero overclocking intentions, but if you have overclocking intentions, DeltaT is a major factor relating to ambient water cooling.

DeltaT will be a determining factor on just how far you get overclocking, and DeltaT is relevant to the radiator cooling field.

 

[ATMINSIDE]

Obviously I struck some kind of nerve with my comments?

Any increased overclocking voltage at all is accelerating degradation, which is an acceptable side effect to any of us that overclock, it truly depends on just how far you desire to go!

Why use voltage degradation as an excuse on a CPU that has not even been on the market long enough to even know for sure what it's daily run voltage limits even are when it relates to CPU overclock longevity?

My comments regarding lower DeltaT allowing higher overclocks seem to be past common acceptable knowledge here, which I am baffled by since this is Overclockers.com.

Water cooling with radiators is not simply a cookie cutter setup, unless you have zero overclocking intentions, but if you have overclocking intentions, DeltaT is a major factor relating to ambient water cooling.

DeltaT will be a determining factor on just how far you get overclocking, and DeltaT is relevant to the radiator cooling field.

Not sure why you think you struck a nerve.

Lower deltas do help overclocking, to a point.
Also voltage degradation is negligible, to a point.
To get past ~4.4-4.5GHz on a 6800K, without a golden sample, you're going to pass the point of negligible increases in degradation.

What I'm trying to get you to see is, with the 6800K and 1080, a thick 480mm radiator is plenty enough to keep the delta low enough to push to the voltage wall.
You realize, even with hefty overclocks, you won't see 400W of cooling need with those two components, correct?

 

[Silver Surfer]

Not sure why you think you struck a nerve.

Lower deltas do help overclocking, to a point.
Also voltage degradation is negligible, to a point.
To get past ~4.4-4.5GHz on a 6800K, without a golden sample, you're going to pass the point of negligible increases in degradation.

What I'm trying to get you to see is, with the 6800K and 1080, a thick 480mm radiator is plenty enough to keep the delta low enough to push to the voltage wall.
You realize, even with hefty overclocks, you won't see 400W of cooling need with those two components, correct?

Are you saying that the 6 core i7-6800K 140w TDP will never exceed the 140w when it is overclocked? (140w TDP is a stock CPU rating, not an overclocked CPU)

Or that the GTX1080 180w TDP will never exceed it's 180w TDP when it is overclocked as well?

Or that a 480 radiator is absolutely guaranteed to dissipate 400w of heat load all by itself?

There are also BIOS variables Sir, that directly contribute to the overclock, like are you overclocked and running hyper threading.

Are you running all of Intels power features, or have you disabled all or some of them.

Can you overclock with the exact same voltage with hyper threading enabled or disabled and remain stable?

No you cannot!

The wattage load handling of any 480 radiator is directly affected by the cooling fans mounted that is also a variable.

You seem to want to side step DeltaT as it being irrelevant because you leave out the numbers and then it actually doesn't back your argument without numbers it is just supposition.

My GPU DeltaT is 5c my CPU DeltaT is 2.4c and sir with all due respect, that does make an overclocking difference.

Edit: I'll throw this in as well FYI.

http://martinsliquidlab.petrastech.com/HWlabs480GTX-Review.html

Lower deltas do help overclocking, to a point.
Also voltage degradation is negligible, to a point.

I don't think you realize from your own words you already lost your own argument.

 

[ATMINSIDE]

Are you saying that the 6 core i7-6800K 140w TDP will never exceed the 140w when it is overclocked? (140w TDP is a stock CPU rating, not an overclocked CPU)

Or that the GTX1080 180w TDP will never exceed it's 180w TDP when it is overclocked as well?

Or that a 480 radiator is absolutely guaranteed to dissipate 400w of heat load all by itself?

There are also BIOS variables Sir, that directly contribute to the overclock, like are you overclocked and running hyper threading.

Are you running all of Intels power features, or have you disabled all or some of them.

Can you overclock with the exact same voltage with hyper threading enabled or disabled and remain stable?

No you cannot!

The wattage load handling of any 480 radiator is directly affected by the cooling fans mounted that is also a variable.

You seem to want to side step DeltaT as it being irrelevant because actually it doesn't back your argument.

My GPU DeltaT is 5c my CPU DeltaT is 2.4c and sir with all due respect, that does make an overclocking difference.

No, that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that, when overclocked, you won't get in to the 400W range with those two pieces of silicon.
Again, this is assuming overclocks safe for daily usage. Obviously pushing for competitive benchmarking and other similar activities will involve higher overclocks and more heat produced.

With all due respect, your 3770K and Titan are nothing like a 6800K and 1080.

 

[LawShadow]

The soldering of the Watercool MO-RA3 is a good catch regarding the round tube and I'm pretty sure it is soldered from looking inside the end cap when I first flushed it out for service about 3 years ago but in my internet searching to see one way or the other if it was soldered or not, I ran across this, what do you think?

https://forum.aquacomputer.de/weitere-foren/english-forum/103319-considering-a-airplex-gigant-3360/

Judging from the pictures of that mammoth of a radiator all tube endings have o-rings just like with my AMS radiator. Ive seen the prices of these rads and they cost an arm and a leg. I never looked for reviews from professionals or from user feedback have no clue how they perform...since these rads are way way above my budget. But they do look sweet. Another poster on OC.net (geggeg) who also makes reviews for various water cooling products: http://thermalbench.com/category/cpu-waterblocks/

States the following about Mo-Ra3: "As far as cleanliness goes, the MO-RA3 uses compression seals and not soldering so there is no flux involved, but also means thicker tubes and higher airflow restriction"
source: http://www.overclock.net/t/1552609/mo-ra3-360-phobya-xtreme-nova-1080-question

From the looks of those watercool rads they do have a similar build procedure as with the aquacomputer ones. But as you have said you could see presumable solder points from looking into the end cap. Unlike with the watercool mo-ra3 the AMS do have clear pictures floating around the internet that shows clearly a solder less build. In the end as long as they do their job 3 years and no problems whether its soldered or seal caps.

What pump did you used btw? Since the Mo-ra3 is also pretty restrictive comparing it with the more mainstream rads out there.
What where your impression with cleaning/flushing your Mo-ra3 rad did it come out clean after flushing compared to traditional rads? Some people had some bad experiences with some traditional rads crap kept coming even after using a inline 5micron filter and submergible pumps for a week!!! And still flux kept coming...The person in question had about enough of those alphacool and EK rads and used a AMS rad and all his dirt issues went away. Are the AMS really clean? I sure hope so!

 

[GTXJackBauer]

My comments regarding lower DeltaT allowing higher overclocks seem to be past common acceptable knowledge here, which I am baffled by since this is Overclockers.com.
................

 

[Silver Surfer]

With all due respect, your 3770K and Titan are nothing like a 6800K and 1080.

Oh, because there is a 7w difference in combined stock TDP, Wow, why didn't you just lead with that.

I mean seeing as how you seem to think that the only thing that matters is fitting under the 400w so called cooling capability of the 480 rad.

- - - Updated - - -

View attachment 180145

Coming out to play today, or just look through the window.

Judging from the pictures of that mammoth of a radiator all tube endings have o-rings just like with my AMS radiator. Ive seen the prices of these rads and they cost an arm and a leg. I never looked for reviews from professionals or from user feedback have no clue how they perform...since these rads are way way above my budget. But they do look sweet. Another poster on OC.net (geggeg) who also makes reviews for various water cooling products: http://thermalbench.com/category/cpu-waterblocks/

States the following about Mo-Ra3: "As far as cleanliness goes, the MO-RA3 uses compression seals and not soldering so there is no flux involved, but also means thicker tubes and higher airflow restriction"
source: http://www.overclock.net/t/1552609/mo-ra3-360-phobya-xtreme-nova-1080-question

From the looks of those watercool rads they do have a similar build procedure as with the aquacomputer ones. But as you have said you could see presumable solder points from looking into the end cap. Unlike with the watercool mo-ra3 the AMS do have clear pictures floating around the internet that shows clearly a solder less build. In the end as long as they do their job 3 years and no problems whether its soldered or seal caps.

What pump did you used btw? Since the Mo-ra3 is also pretty restrictive comparing it with the more mainstream rads out there.
What where your impression with cleaning/flushing your Mo-ra3 rad did it come out clean after flushing compared to traditional rads? Some people had some bad experiences with some traditional rads crap kept coming even after using a inline 5micron filter and submergible pumps for a week!!! And still flux kept coming...The person in question had about enough of those alphacool and EK rads and used a AMS rad and all his dirt issues went away. Are the AMS really clean? I sure hope so!

Regarding the MO-RA3 I honestly do not remember if it was actually soldered or not I was flushing many rads during that time period as I gave away all my smaller rads so whether it is soldered or not I do not know, if it is O-ring sealed tubes that may account for it's extra flow restriction it was labeled as having.

Sealed or soldered, the only thing I know for sure regarding the Watercool MO-RA3 is how well it performs, it is some of the best water cooling equipment I've spent money on yet!

I do know when I flushed it, almost nothing debri wise came out of it, of that I was most impressed.

I use D5 pumps.