How can I tell if a UPS Battery Backup is killing off my components?

[c627627]

My problem from here has turned into a potential power problem, so I reposted in this section.


I am using a UPS Battery Backup (specs below.)

1. To it I had a cable DVR box connected. It died (power on - nothing happens.)

2. LCD connected to it developed an infinite power on/off loop.

3. Now a PSU connected to it died today.


How do I find out if this is a triple coincidence, how do I test if this UPS Battery Backup is a serial killer?


UPS Battery Backup
Back-UPS ES 500
APC 500VA300 W BE500U


Technical Specifications

Output power capacity 500 VA
Output power capacity 300 Watts
Max Configurable Power 500 VA
Max Configurable Power 300 Watts
Nominal output voltage 120 VA

Input voltage range for main operations 96 - 136 V


_____________________
AMD Athlon XP 2500+ AXMH 2500 FQQ4C
IQYHA 0348 SPMW
2 x 512MB Centon PC3200 (Samsung chips) @ 9 4 4 3
[200] FSB x 12 = 2400 MHz @ 1.85 Vcore with memory frequency at 100% [200 FSB] @ 2.90 Vdimm and 1.8 Vdd
Epox 8RDA3+ v2.1, BIOS 07/29/2004
Thermalright SLK-900A with variable speed 80x25mm Thermaltake Smart Fan 2
AIW 9600XT 128MB; Antec SX-835II case ; 380W Antec TruePower TP380
Four 80x25mm Case Fans + 1 Variable speed 80x25mm Fan YS-Tech FD1281259B-2F

 

[soulfly1448]

Do you really think it could be anything else? Three completely unconnected units died that happen to be connected to the same UPS. DVR, LCD and PSU?

Dead battery would be the first thought. My question is, why do you need a UPS on your home unit? I've seen so many posts about UPS's destroying eqiupment.

 

[c627627]

Do you really think it could be anything else?

Hence the thread.

Do you really think it could be anything else? Three completely unconnected units died that happen to be connected to the same UPS. DVR, LCD and PSU?

Yes, I noticed the DVR models being replaced by the cable company due to high failure rates.
LCD, I have no explanation for.
I've had problems with every Antec I've ever owned. Good thing they have an excellent replacement guarantee, they cross shipped a replacement to me straight away.

Dead battery would be the first thought.

Hm. How does a dead battery effect anything, I mean it's like the equipment is plugged into a regular surge protector -- when the power goes out -- the equipment switches off straight away.

Battery being dead would only mean I would have no backup power to keep the system going when the power goes out. It doesn't mean anything else, just the battery being dead which I don't thing it is yet.

My question is, why do you need a UPS on your home unit? I've seen so many posts about UPS's destroying equipment.

Because once or twice a year the power goes out for a second or two reseting the computer. Running power through them prevents that 2 second interruption of power to PC.

Battery backup which I bought for a bargain made sense... unless there is a downside to using them... and you say there is?

 

[wreckwriter]

Power here is so flakey you don't dare go without a UPS. I'd say we have power "flashes" at least once a week, more often in the early summer rainy season. I use an APC ES 725 (450 W) and have been happy with it.

 

[c627627]

Multi meter switched to AC volts with the black & the red stuck inside the UPS power sockets, gets the same results:

123.3 V when the UPS is connected to power
79.3 V when the UPS is disconnected and is being powered by the battery
0 V obviously when the UPS is turned off.

 

[c627627]

I have a brand new never opened identical UPS.

123.3 V plugged in
89.3 V battery powered.

Hm.

 

[greenmaji]

Sounds like its time to contact APC I don't see how that off line voltage could be exceptable.
It makes it seem like its missing an extra battery
I could see useing UPS at home for frequent brown out protection as well..

let us know how this turns out.

 

[Gautam]

Okay, that is really scary.

 

[c627627]

Try it on your UPC Gautam, then post so I can make a plan what to say when I call them.

I had two unopened ones, the last one was the one you have I believe, APC 725VA425 W BE725BB

Either way, check out what AVS forum had to say about it:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=696787

 

[c627627]

Matter off fact, I would really appreciate it if you measured your voltage Gautam so I can consult with you before calling them.

AVS people said it may be "...mearly displaying average voltage and the output waveform is not a pure sine wave."

I just remembered I had a CD player connected to it that started flashing off & on a year ago and my receiver radio is dead (other connections to it work) but I still don't know how to make sure it's the UPC because I have the receipt and if it is, the guarantee on it says they would pay for damaged equipment.

I'm sure, as any insurance company, they would try to weasel out of that guarantee... that's why I need to consult.

 

[Gautam]

Ok, when I get home tonight I'll be sure to.

And I would love to get my hands on an oscilloscope...but waay too much purchasing recently.

A multimeter in AC should always display the RMS voltage...weird things seem to be going on.

 

[c627627]

All right, appreciate it, we'll take it on from there.

I expect you will find similar voltage results. If you do not, I'll open the third APC UPS I have and test it.


Of course, calling APC telling them the whole story, then shipping the heavy UPC to them is what should be done, however:


I am concerned about the two other APC products I have, what am I supposed to do, send all three in for inspection? I would really like to find a way to test these and all future UPS products before connecting anything to them.

 

[Gautam]

Not as bad as your readings but still not pretty!

116.9 plugged in
94.5-95.3 on battery

But to the unit's credit, I have been using it for two and a half years, and it has given me power through several outages and other blips. If you remember, I suffered a heavy hardware loss three years ago from what we determined was a power spike. (Not surprising because my house's circuitry is quite ancient...only had circuit breakers installed recently, and we still break them pretty often when a lot of high powered stuff is running)

In any case, like I said, I have been going strong so far for 2.5+ years. *touches wood*

 

[c627627]

All right. This warrants me opening the APC 725VA425. I'll plug it in, let it do the initial charge overnight, then test it tomorrow.

My two APC 500VA300 are 300 Watts whereas the 725VA425 is 425 Watts.

Either way, this is the one you have, right?


1. What voltage should a brand new one show?
2. What kind of a potential explanation is this: "...mearly displaying average voltage and the output waveform is not a pure sine wave."
3. Who can we get to see this thread to try to help me answer the main question of whether it is possible to test the UPS to determine if they can kill.

I asked hitechjb1 about my tests, he says "unless it shows much different (higher) than 120 V, one cannot tell whether there are some other hidden issues (e.g. high voltage spikes)."


In any case, I'll post the tests tomorrow on the third UPS, any additional suggestions are welcome.

 

[Gautam]

Well, no matter what, the multimeter will show the RMS voltage...as the acronym imples the root of the average squared. So if ripples occur in equally large magnitudes from the mean they'd effectively get wiped out...

But I had another thought. Someone with more knowledge will hopefully step in, but from what I know, the highest voltage output of an ATX power supply is 12v. It's job per se is to take whatever the input voltage is and regulate it at a steady 12v, 5v, 3.3v etc. Even if the input is all over the place, I'd think it wouldn't matter for a good power supply. And besides that, even 75V should still be much more than enough in theory, shouldn't it?

And yes that is my model.

 

[orionlion82]

HOLD IT!
undervolting?
not "pure sine wave"
and this is a computer grade UPS?
Crucify them!

anything less than about 105V over more than a few minuets will kill most computer equipment.
and the idea im getting here is that APC or whomever is using cheaper "non-pure-sine-wave" or "modified sine wave" or "square wave" inverters is absolutely unexcusable when talking about computer equipment.
as a matter of fact those inverters are for everything BUT computer equipment!!!
all the old APC units i had were pure sine wave, and would give a steady 110V all the way down to the warning buzzer.

between now and then somebody effed up somehow ...

and by the way, missing an extra battery or not, batteries feed the inverters - batteries are rated in amp hours. usually they are gell or lead acid or whatever. a small battery might be only 5 or 10 AH - but thats
1 amp for 5 hours, or 5 amps for one hour. (12vdc or 24vdc) it dosnt matter how hard you hit the battery as long as you keep your draw within spec. its more efficient to hit them hard anyway, because of efficiency losses in the inverter over longer periods of operating.

and, oh, its a safe bet that YES that IS what is killing your equipment. i would bet money with voltage down in the double digits like that...

 

[greenmaji]

baa.. your right.. there only 12 or 24 V (the batteries)

 

[orionlion82]

baa.. your right.. there only 12 or 24 V (the batteries)

yep, it should have a little label silk-screened on them as i remember where you can find that info out. much the same for the inverters.

so here is the question - does the problem lie with the batteries or the inverters?

test the leads of the batteries and see what sort of voltages there are and post back.

oh, and basic info for the noob:
a UPS is:

1. battery (ies)
2. inverter (wikepidia it you lazy bum)
3. automatic transfer switch
4. line voltage pass-thru
5. battery charger

 

[greenmaji]

Or check out www.apc.com

well.. thats the popular OEM

 

[c627627]

After a night of charging, brand new APC model 725VA425 (425 Watts):

123.3 V
and
73.2 V battery powered.


Hm....