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Just another crazy thought experiment... stop in if your curious.
- Thread starter TuKr
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2004
Knoober, you might be interested in the diamond-copper composites. Last I checked, these were still much too expensive, but industrial diamond is cheap, and the price of the composites will come down if the material becomes popular with some large industry.
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2015
Holy crap. If you can afford it they will coat just about anything in diamonds. I dont know if they could do a cold plate , but wow.
The bit about diamonds got me thinking of another form of carbon that might be of use. I did a quick search and didnt really see any place it had already been used (But my searching is cursory at best) but..... graphite! Thermal conductivity between 900 and 1100 w/mk (no good sources, just posts in other forums for these figures) and readily available. Ill post back if I find anything relevant about it, and the next time I change my pastes Im putting powedered graphite in the mix. I know diamond pastes exist, but I did not find a graphite based TIM. Hmmm.... the doors that have been opened here (for me anyways) . Thanks Otter!
Edit: Found some. Still interesting even though it already exists
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2012
if you guys would invest a few bucks in a book called engineer to win by carol smith a lot of this thread wold not have been posted.
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2015
Well supposing I have a petite wallet are there any excerpts you would care to read me as a bed time story ?
Seriously though without reading the book is there anything in particular that you (or the info contained in said resource) would add here? Details of high technology are often over my head though, so pretty please make it so I can understand ? Im assuming there is a quite a bit to be said about how metals react to heat and how much air needs to pass over it to disspate?
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2012
none of it is high tech, the book is from the 70's and still valid today.
the basics of it is that there is no magics, our cooling is best when it is directly from one medium to another, in this case water to air, lots of the coolest airflow into our cooler and lots of EXPANDED airflow out, EXPANDED.
when you put a gas under pressure you heat it, we don't want to heat it that way, we want it to heat by taking heat out of our heat exchanger, we don't just let the water fly about we have to contain it, in our cooler, so we have a third medium, the copper of the rad, don't add a forth medium into it, the stupid paint on the fins.
gas cools when you expand it and heats when you compress it.
gas will take on more heat from our copper fins when the gas temp is lower than the fin temp and the cooler than the fins the more heat it will carry away.
take a blow gun attached to a compressor feel how cool the air is coming out, now go feel the compressor, that sucker is stinking hot, yet the air coming out of the blow gun is quite cool.
the basics of it is that there is no magics, our cooling is best when it is directly from one medium to another, in this case water to air, lots of the coolest airflow into our cooler and lots of EXPANDED airflow out, EXPANDED.
when you put a gas under pressure you heat it, we don't want to heat it that way, we want it to heat by taking heat out of our heat exchanger, we don't just let the water fly about we have to contain it, in our cooler, so we have a third medium, the copper of the rad, don't add a forth medium into it, the stupid paint on the fins.
gas cools when you expand it and heats when you compress it.
gas will take on more heat from our copper fins when the gas temp is lower than the fin temp and the cooler than the fins the more heat it will carry away.
take a blow gun attached to a compressor feel how cool the air is coming out, now go feel the compressor, that sucker is stinking hot, yet the air coming out of the blow gun is quite cool.
I plan on doing just as you described.
I had this conversation with Matt from Puget systems this past spring.
Me
I'm setting up a system with a 12.000 BTU A/C unit. I was thinking of submerging the evaporator in the oil bath with the computer. I would use a couple of pumps to discharge the oil flow directly on the CPU and GPU's. My question is "at what temperature would the oil become too viscous for a Swiftech 35x to move it?"
Matt
You would have to get it really cold to not be able to pump it at all. We did some testing using a liquid chiller from Koolance (I believe it was this model: http://koolance.com/exc-800-po... and while the oil got very viscous, the pump never stopped pumping. It did turn into a trickle though, so at a certain point you might be hurting things more than helping. It's been a while, but I want to say we started to see a drop in flow unitl it became a trickle at about 10C. I believe we eventually got the oil down to -5C, but that took a long time without the computer under any load. At 10C, condensation was a huge problem. Everything that was in the oil was fine, but our design only has the motherboard mostly submerged so you could get to the ports easily. The problem was that where the motherboard came out of the oil we were getting condensation right on the motherboard which isn't exactly ideal.
Unless you do something extreme and get the oil down that cold, I don't think you'll have too much of a problem pumping the oil around.
Me
I just had an idea. I will set up the system as a chilled water system as I originally planned but submerge the computer in oil. That way I can realize the low temps of water without the worries of condensation.
END
For the time being I've gone geothermal. I plan on using the geothermal system I've built to cool the A/C condenser and maybe the compressor. My computer is completely water cooled now and mounted on a plastic bench case the will fit perfectly in a 10 gallon fish tank (made sure before I ordered it). The A/c unit is stripped down, I've drawn up the control wiring diagram, and have the needed relays, sensors, and an Arduino board to control it.
Alas I will have to wait until next summer because I'm a teacher and there is just no time during the school year.
I've just read through all the posts in this thread. It's interesting to see young people have epiphanies. The main theory discussed here is what is know as closed loop evaporative cooling. There are some great videos on youtube that describe the process in both layman terms and some that go into great detail about mixing different gasses to obtain optimal cooling. Search for "how does air conditioning work".
The reason an internal combustion engine's coolant system is pressurized is because the optimal temperature for proper fuel atomization and flame propagation is 204F. Cooler, and the fuel condenses on the cylinder walls; hotter and it vaporizes. Neither condition is desirable. We also need to remove water condensate from the lubrication system that accumulates as the engine cools after being turned off. The temperature throughout the system is not equal. There are areas of higher and lower temperature. Because water boils at 212F we need to raise that boiling point of the coolant mixture so we do not get pockets of high temperature steam. This would create hot spots in the engine components and lead to catastrophic engine failure.
The reason an internal combustion engine's coolant system is pressurized is because the optimal temperature for proper fuel atomization and flame propagation is 204F. Cooler, and the fuel condenses on the cylinder walls; hotter and it vaporizes. Neither condition is desirable. We also need to remove water condensate from the lubrication system that accumulates as the engine cools after being turned off. The temperature throughout the system is not equal. There are areas of higher and lower temperature. Because water boils at 212F we need to raise that boiling point of the coolant mixture so we do not get pockets of high temperature steam. This would create hot spots in the engine components and lead to catastrophic engine failure.
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2015
Like I said, theres engineers out there that surely have thought of some of this stuff. I am under the impression that nothing I think of can possibly be new or radical because I havent hit the edge of knowledge yet. It impossible that this road hasnt been traveled before. I also believe that advances in tech make it neccessary to revisit verdicts from the past (like when DNA evidence proved past verdicts to be false)
if I ever find that book on a coffee table somewhere, Ill be sure to pick it up. And call whomever's table it is on caddi daddi
Cant promise Ill read it soon professor, but its made it on to the list of " if I ever have time..." Just one more thing to add to a post about offbeat ideas: take a stock AMD HS and cut a 1/2 hole in it. Grease the hole with TIM and jam a copper pipe in there. COnnect it to the cpu (properly with grase and all) and connect your water block to that pipe. You should be adding to the contact surface area of the water thereby taking more heat off the cpu and into the water.
Dont say anything unless this is going to be a disaster. I intend to try this one myself if I ever build a water loop. Remember: No naysayers unless this will cause catastrophe
Dont say anything unless this is going to be a disaster. I intend to try this one myself if I ever build a water loop. Remember: No naysayers unless this will cause catastrophe
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2012
knoober, just build a nuclear cooling tower and call it cool, I so want to do one here but my little bee would quit making potato salad if I did.......
and yes I have to agree, nothing new under the sun, but you can find a new way to apply it so, NEVER GIVE UP!!!!!!
and yes I have to agree, nothing new under the sun, but you can find a new way to apply it so, NEVER GIVE UP!!!!!!
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2015
Oh yeah, thats what I was looking fer! Nuclear you say?!?! Hmmmmm, Now I know what to build next! Now I can go do something everyone else is sure wont work! MUAHAHAHAHA! Now to find a drill press.....
If you guys are around i a dozen years Ill let you know if it works. Ive got neither time nor tools, nor more than a passing interest in water cooling ( I mean, it would be great but its on the far side of the budget - and will be for a long time). By the time I build this thing they will be migrating the heat away from the cpu with lazers
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2015
Yeah thats all from me. Ill keep checking the thread, but unless something demands comment I think I may have said more than enoughalready
I never meant to steal the spotlight from TuKr in the first place. I just saw that there was theoretical stuff in here and thats where I shine : where reality hasnt made it to yet -- or atleast where imagination hasnt gotten bogged down in the details yetEdit: Also it really does take me an inordinate amount of time to actually build things.
