AMD OverDrive and Llano APU general overclocking

[Bucic]

Hi there!
This is my first post on the forums. Before I started the topic I did a proper search for the following keywords: 'llano', 'a4-3400', 'overdrive'. I didn't find answers to my questions.

Basically I recently bought an old Llano APU and I saw nothing against trying to push it a little. Turned out even using two average-joe tools (AMD OverDrive (AOD) and GB EasyTune (GBET)) yielded ~20+% performance increase in ArmA 3. With a discrete card the game is playable which surprised me. ArmA 3 uses a vintage re-baked non-multicore CPU-chocking engine so it's all about raw clocks.

The problem is there's quite a few things which I don't understand or that contradict what I've read from savvy guys, topped with weird readings.

Here are my doubts/questions:
(question mark indicates a question; no question mark indicates description of what I experience on my system ; feel free to comment on the descriptions as well!)

0. The A4-3400 APU is supposed to be rated at 2.7 GHz and yet whenever I look it up in CPU-Z it shows 2.3. GBET>Tuner>Frequency>Advanced also shows two values for FSB. By default they are 27 ('Power On' column) and 23 ('Target' column). Why is that so?

1. Does AMD OverDrive overclocking sum up with BIOS overclocking?
a) I do get a perf. increase with AOD cranked up + BIOS OC compared to just the BIOS OC.
b) I get different results from AOD Autotuning depending on what base APU frequency I initiate it.
c) AOD+BIOS OC gives bizarre readouts in CPU-Z:
c1) I did AOD autotuning @ the default clocks in BIOS
c2) applied BIOS 2.9 GHz OC
c3) applied AOD on top of that
c4) CPU-Z indicated 4.3 GHz! Why is that so?

2. Don't Llano APUs supposed to have locked multiplier? I see it at different values all the time. I thing AOD uses M higher than 27...

My goal:
If possible, discvover what parameters are changed by AOD and use this info to step up my BIOS-only ovclocking.

Additional info:
*Temperatures are not an issue (60 deg C during high stress) so please don't ask me about the cooler I use (stock one).
*I've disabled all green power-saving settings in the BIOS (C6, Thermal..., CnQ)
*I don't use the integrated graphics in this particular case

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Hi there!
This is my first post on the forums. Before I started the topic I did a proper search for the following keywords: 'llano', 'a4-3400', 'overdrive'. I didn't find answers to my questions. There are tutorials for AMD OverDrive, this program applies to a lot of AMD processors and motherboards as far back as the 7 series chipsets.

Basically I recently bought an old Llano APU and I saw nothing against trying to push it a little. Turned out even using two average-joe tools (AMD OverDrive (AOD) and GB EasyTune (GBET)) yielded ~20+% performance increase in ArmA 3. With a discrete card the game is playable which surprised me. ArmA 3 uses a vintage re-baked non-multicore CPU-chocking engine so it's all about raw clocks. It may be easy to get performance boosts from such a low clocked processor. Too bad it lacks extra cache

The problem is there's quite a few things which I don't understand or that contradict what I've read from savvy guys, topped with weird readings.

Here are my doubts/questions:

0. The A4-3400 APU is supposede to be rated at 2.7 GHz and yet whenever I look it up in CPU-Z it shows 2.3. What's with that? GBET>Tuner>Frequency>Advanced shows two values for FSB. By default they are 27 ('Power On' column) and 23 ('Target' column). Looks like target gives you a 2.3ghz cpu-z reading. You want to select power on perhaps for overclocking?

1. Does AMD OverDrive overclocking sum up with BIOS overclocking? NO, AMD OverDrive does not permanently change settings in bios except for changes in AOD that are red and require a restart.
a) I do get a perf. increase with AOD cranked up + BIOS OC compared to just the BIOS OC. OK that's not a bad thing!
b) I get different results from AOD Autotuning depending on what base APU frequency I initiate it.
c) AOD+BIOS OC gives bizarre readouts in CPU-Z: Try updating cpu-z and or overclock with one or the other.
c1) I did AOD autotuning @ the default clocks in BIOS
c2) applied BIOS 2.9 GHz OC
c3) applied AOD on top of that
c4) CPU-Z indicated 4.3 GHz! doubt you have the cooling to support this clock speed and voltage increase needed to run this clock speed.

2. Don't Llano APUs supposed to have locked multiplier? I see it at different values all the time. I thing AOD uses M higher than 27... You can change the multiplier yes. It is a known clitch and will do nothing for performance. You can use the highest mulitplier (23) and that's it. The rest is bus clocking only. however you can lower the multiplier for overclocking and that will reflect on your overclocks.

Additional info:
*Temperatures are not an issue (60 deg C during high stress) so please don't ask me about the cooler I use (stock one).
*I've disabled all green power-saving settings in the BIOS (C6, Thermal..., CnQ)

60c is getting warm. That setup should, can and will thermal throttle once the cpu hits 65c.

Yes a better cooler might get you a better overclock. just saying

 

[Bucic]

60c is getting warm. That setup should, can and will thermal throttle once the cpu hits 65c.

Yes a better cooler might get you a better overclock. just saying

65 is during a stress test. Thermal management is disabled. M=23 is at idle/internet browsing. Conclusion: Forget about temperatures.

PS. The topic is hardly about 'better OC results'. Please read the entire post #1 before answering.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

65 is during a stress test. Thermal management is disabled. M=23 is at idle/internet browsing. Conclusion: Forget about temperatures.

PS. The topic is hardly about 'better OC results'. Please read the entire post #1 before answering.

Then what is this quote all about??

a) I do get a perf. increase with AOD cranked up + BIOS OC compared to just the BIOS OC.

Looks like "better OC results" to me.....

Not sure what your looking for, but if it isn't in an OVERCLOCKERSFORUM, then your in the wrong section.

Perhaps try the motherboard section then?

 

[trents]

Is you CPU a "k" model? If so the multiplier is unlocked. In not, then not. What you are seeing with the multiplier changing values has nothing to do with being locked or unlocked. It is caused by the Turbo feature which speeds up some of the cores under load and reduces it at idle to conserve energy. It is commonly known, by the way, that most temp reporting software does not accurately report temps for the AMD APUs. If I recall correctly, however, Overdrive may be an exception. Most of us here on the forum use HWMonitor (non pro version) but it does not report accurate temps for the APUs. We highly recommend learning to overclock from the bios rather than relying on software like AMDOD. Using the bios generally gives better results. Overclocking software usually does not provide the range of tools and adjustments that bios does, at least on motherboards with well-developed overclocking tools. One example is that with Windows-based overclocking software you cannot change the RAM divider. In other words, if you wanted to lower the RAM speed from 1866 to 1600 you could not do that with software.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Is you CPU a "k" model? If so the multiplier is unlocked. In not, then not. What you are seeing with the multiplier changing values has nothing to do with being locked or unlocked. It is caused by the Turbo feature which speeds up some of the cores under load and reduces it at idle to conserve energy. It is commonly known, by the way, that most temp reporting software does not accurately report temps for the AMD APUs. If I recall correctly, however, Overdrive may be an exception. Most of us here on the forum use HWMonitor (non pro version) but it does not report accurate temps for the APUs.

http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K10/AMD-A-Series A4-3400.html

HWmonitor reports temps fine on Llano processors. I have an A8-3850 with a pretty decent overclock..... be more than glad to grab a screen shot when the PC is available. (family room PC. closely monitored and very often used)

 

[RGone]

be more than glad to grab a screen ...ose turn is it next?" RGone...:D.....:chair:

 

[Bucic]

Not sure what your looking for, but if it isn't in an OVERCLOCKERSFORUM, then your in the wrong section.

Perhaps try the motherboard section then?

I've edited my original post for a more clear wording. If that is not clear enough for you, I'm at a loss.

Is you CPU a "k" model? If so the multiplier is unlocked. In not, then not. What you are seeing with the multiplier changing values has nothing to do with being locked or unlocked. It is caused by the Turbo feature which speeds up some of the cores under load and reduces it at idle to conserve energy. It is commonly known, by the way, that most temp reporting software does not accurately report temps for the AMD APUs. If I recall correctly, however, Overdrive may be an exception. Most of us here on the forum use HWMonitor (non pro version) but it does not report accurate temps for the APUs. We highly recommend learning to overclock from the bios rather than relying on software like AMDOD. Using the bios generally gives better results. Overclocking software usually does not provide the range of tools and adjustments that bios does, at least on motherboards with well-developed overclocking tools. One example is that with Windows-based overclocking software you cannot change the RAM divider. In other words, if you wanted to lower the RAM speed from 1866 to 1600 you could not do that with software.

Thanks fot your reply.
*my APU is not a K model
*Temperature readout indicated by my motherboard correspond to Temperatures > TMPIN2 in my HWMonitor install (v1.25) ; Core #0 and #1 readouts are unrealistically low
*AOD: this is the major part of my OP - it appears to me that AOD is NOT just a software overclocking achievable by BIOS settings. It seems to me AOD supplements what is set in BIOS.

 

[trents]

You may have bios settings hidden by "Auto" values. I have never seen overclocking software that will give controls not present in bios.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

I've edited my original post for a more clear wording. If that is not clear enough for you, I'm at a loss.


Thanks fot your reply.
*my APU is not a K model
*Temperature readout indicated by my motherboard correspond to Temperatures > TMPIN2 in my HWMonitor install (v1.25) ; Core #0 and #1 readouts are unrealistically low
*AOD: this is the major part of my OP - it appears to me that AOD is NOT just a software overclocking achievable by BIOS settings. It seems to me AOD supplements what is set in BIOS.

Sorry you where unclear and I misread some of it.

Again mother board and bios questions belong in the motherboard section as your clearly not asking about overclocking.

 

[Bucic]

Sorry you where unclear and I misread some of it.

Again mother board and bios questions belong in the motherboard section as your clearly not asking about overclocking.

None of my questions are about motherboard. If I'd to put my OP in one sentence it would be: "How is AMD Overdrive related to BIOS overclocking?

See the attached imae. It's a simple case. My BIOS OC is achieved by using the preset no 3 in GBET. It only ramps up FSB up to 128 MHz. So here are some clear and specific questions:
1. What does AOD do when I enable it (the bottom part of the image)?
2. How does it make my APU go 3.3GHz? I.E. what parameters it alters to achieve this?

EDIT:
'My goal' section added to the original post (#1).

 

[RGone]

I thought I remembered something about Llano APUs.

.
This link is about at least 3 bugs in Llano cpus and how any software might not be able to 'read' the correct information.

http://www.passmark.com/forum/showthread.php?3580-AMD-Llano-fake-overclocking-A4-A6-A8
AMD Llano fake overclocking, A4/A6/A8

I did not do much more searching as it seemed there was no real push to sort the bugs for reading by software out. Overclocked or not there are bugs it surely seems.
RGone...

 

[Bucic]

.
This link is about at least 3 bugs in Llano cpus and how any software might not be able to 'read' the correct information.

http://www.passmark.com/forum/showthread.php?3580-AMD-Llano-fake-overclocking-A4-A6-A8
AMD Llano fake overclocking, A4/A6/A8

I did not do much more searching as it seemed there was no real push to sort the bugs for reading by software out. Overclocked or not there are bugs it surely seems.
RGone...

I've seen the post while doing my research prior to posting. Figured it's not relevant to my case as I don't touch multiplier.

 

[RGone]

Second bug is in the CPU itself. CPUz and PerformanceTest use what's known as MSRs, "Model specific registers" in the CPU to report on the CPUs current speed. The wrong information is being reported in these MSRs. So all the monitoring tools also report the wrong information.

That appears to have quite a bit more to do with the early Llano cpus than "just" when overclocking.
RGone...

 

[ShrimpBrime]

None of my questions are about motherboard. If I'd to put my OP in one sentence it would be: "How is AMD Overdrive related to BIOS overclocking?

See the attached imae. It's a simple case. My BIOS OC is achieved by using the preset no 3 in GBET. It only ramps up FSB up to 128 MHz. So here are some clear and specific questions:
1. What does AOD do when I enable it (the bottom part of the image)?
2. How does it make my APU go 3.3GHz? I.E. what parameters it alters to achieve this?

EDIT:
'My goal' section added to the original post (#1).

Aside from the most excellent information RGone has provided, I think this is hard to help you when you provide a screen shot of Easy tune, not AMD OverDrive and trying to figure out correlation between 2 programs and bios.

To be specific, BIOS overclocking is a for sure thing where software may not be and is why most will say to OC via bios and forget the OC software as to avoid problems and conflicts from that software during the OC process.

Basically your relying on drivers within the operating system to change clock frequencies. While this is not a perfect way to go about overclocking, results can and will vary.

For your goal.....

Ditch the software and just OC via bios. It'll save you some troubles and help you get to know the bios for overclocking better as some settings in bios will be there and others in AOD won't be in bios.

If you where going to be benchmarking, I'd be glad to assist with AOD and overclocking, but at this point your wanting a daily OC and EXTREME overclocking is a moot point and used with software to obtain the highest beyond bios OC possible.

 

[Bucic]

First let me state that I think I've figured out the answer to post #1 item no 0. It seems the APU throttles down a notch when not under high load so this is why it operates at 2.3 instead of 2.7 GHz.

I could also confirm that both CPU-Z and GBET indicate the APU speed correctly when at default settings as well as when overclocked in BIOS.

Second bug is in the CPU itself. CPUz and PerformanceTest use what's known as MSRs, "Model specific registers" in the CPU to report on the CPUs current speed. The wrong information is being reported in these MSRs. So all the monitoring tools also report the wrong information.

That appears to have quite a bit more to do with the early Llano cpus than "just" when overclocking.
RGone...

I admit I didn't pay enough attention to the whole post, sorry. But still, it doesn't seem to affect the current tools. Please see the beginning of this post.

Aside from the most excellent information RGone has provided, I think this is hard to help you when you provide a screen shot of Easy tune, not AMD OverDrive and trying to figure out correlation between 2 programs and bios.

To be specific, BIOS overclocking is a for sure thing where software may not be and is why most will say to OC via bios and forget the OC software as to avoid problems and conflicts from that software during the OC process.

Basically your relying on drivers within the operating system to change clock frequencies. While this is not a perfect way to go about overclocking, results can and will vary.

For your goal.....

Ditch the software and just OC via bios. It'll save you some troubles and help you get to know the bios for overclocking better as some settings in bios will be there and others in AOD won't be in bios.

If you where going to be benchmarking, I'd be glad to assist with AOD and overclocking, but at this point your wanting a daily OC and EXTREME overclocking is a moot point and used with software to obtain the highest beyond bios OC possible.

I'd happily ditch the AOD 'sherlocking' if I could at least match my current BIOS+AOD overclocking. Thank you for your offer and sorry for wasting a bit of your time up to this point...

Regarding 'software overclocking'. My honest impression was GBET actually changes BIOS setting when prompts for a restart of the system. Isn't it the case?

AOD vs... AOD
I didn't know there is a standalone AOD! :
When looking up AOD I saw some screen grabs with advanced controls not present in my AMD Catalyst Control Center (CCC). I figured the advanced controls had been removed in recent versions or are applicable only to some other line of AMD processors.

=============================
OK, here are screen grabs of a standalone AOD from my current OC if you're interested
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?res...6&authkey=!AOmDAauheqzNmkw&ithint=folder,.png
I guess you don't need default parameters as they are known, right? Let me know if you do.

Please tell me where do I start. I'll disable GBET and AOD in CCC before applying any settings suggested by you of course.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

OK fair enough..... Firstly.

*Temperatures are not an issue (60 deg C during high stress) so please don't ask me about the cooler I use (stock one).

This is BS man. You cannot run overclocks on this processor. It will just thermal throttle even with all the green turned off. (at least my A8-3850 does), I found this out during benchmarking. I'd OC and OV and my scores would go down. So I decided to monitor the action via temps and cpu-z just to see a MAJOR clock decrease when the Cpu hit 65c on the button.

So you need to address your cooling issues first. 60c is a big issue when we talk in terms of overclocking.

And no, Llano chips do not find 4ghz stable, even on a custom loop. My highest overclock never found 4ghz. http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=1909866 But was close.

Your aim should be between 3400mhz and 3600mhz with a Nice New Cooler.

 

[Bucic]

And no, Llano chips do not find 4ghz stable, even on a custom loop. My highest overclock never found 4ghz. http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=1909866 But was close.

Your aim should be between 3400mhz and 3600mhz with a Nice New Cooler.

What set of parameters do you recommend to achieve 3400MHz then?
Below are screen grabs of my BIOS settings. They are for my current OC but I intended the grabs as a reference for you so you know what settings are available in my BIOS (updated BIOS may differ from what is in the mobo manual, as you know).
I don't see any Turbo Core settings there BTW...

Temperatures:
I've just replaced the stock fan with this little monster http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=136
Max. temp. during stress dropped to 53 deg C. I'll look around for a better cooler but please let's carry on for now.

GBET:
I've just confirmed what I initially thought. GBET does change BIOS parameters permanently. You could probably uninstall it and the altered BIOS settings would stay as they were. I'll be doing actual BIOS alterations though from now on, as you requested.

Wrong APU speed indications:
Regarding the bugs. What should I rely on then? Should I just manually do 27xFSB to get actual true speed value? Before, I wrote the tools seem to indicate the speed correctly on my system. Now I'm not so sure (again), sorry. For example the tools show my max. multiplier is 26 instead of 27. All of them: GBET, CPU-Z and AOD. AOD shows M/2 so 13 in this case.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

GBET does change BIOS parameters permanently

It shouldn't change them permanently. You don't want the programs to do that if possible. Again, most overclockers on a benchmarking team use software to get well above what bios would post stable. It's pointless to use software for daily clocks because

(updated BIOS may differ from what is in the mobo manual, as you know).

I really think your going to have a hard time in regards to cooling. It's going to take a bit of voltage to get some speed from the Cpu.

The max Cpu VID is 1.4125v. I would use this voltage as a base to overclock on so your still within P-state specs, and IS too much for a stock 2.7ghz processor. So I'd be curious to see the p-states for that cpu listed by Cpu-z just for reference.

Typically, you lower your HT NB and Ram dividers. This helps prevent the need for over-volting these peripherals and should help maintain stability as you overclock the processor only. Then you concentrate on your HT/NB overclocking along with Ram tweaking after you've gotten the Cpu stable.

You can read the stickies for Athlon or Phenom or FX overclocking as it's very very similar to APU overclocking. The only difference is if your using the IGP or not and that will impact your processor overclocking.

 

[RGone]

A cpu or APU in the same series is pretty much the same...

...Dinos22 has been around motherboards and tweaking for years. He has done an overclocking/tweaking guide using the GIGABYTE A55M-S2V v1.1 with > (F2 shipping bios).

CPU he used was >> AMD A6-3500 (tricore, 2.1GHz-2.4Ghz CPU, 444MHz GPU clock).

He has bios pictures in the .pdf file that show what it was that he referred to. Pretty good read for that old Llano platform.

http://www.pcpowerplay.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/AMD-A55-OC-Guide-AU.pdf
Dino Strkljevic (dinos22), GIGABYTE Australia
Page #1
GIGABYTE AMD A55 CHIPSET OC GUIDE