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After extensive searching, the only thing adding detergent is going to do is make a big mess. The idea behind it is from 05ish when water wetter was still big. The purpose was to increase flow rates, which is something we really don't have to worry about as much now.

I keep getting a feeling I am necro threading, but I look at the dates and voila!
 
you can use dye but make sure you flush your system every 2 weeks or so? maybe...

for me i flush my system every month, not to sure if thats over kill but thats my problem from liking to mess around with my pc alot

what i can do is what i said, ill add dye and flush it out every 2 weeks for a test, after 6 or 7 months ill tear down my cpu block, what do you guys think about that idea?
 
you can use dye but make sure you flush your system every 2 weeks or so? maybe...

for me i flush my system every month, not to sure if thats over kill but thats my problem from liking to mess around with my pc alot

what i can do is what i said, ill add dye and flush it out every 2 weeks for a test, after 6 or 7 months ill tear down my cpu block, what do you guys think about that idea?

2 weeks is probably excessive. I say if you do a complete tear down every 6 months, you would be fine.

No one is going to give their blessings on using dyes, and you really shouln't worry about looking for that. It's your loop, and you have to be happy with it. If dyes make you happy, dye away. It's your money, your rig, and your loop.
 
I used dyes with no problems with clogging... back when cpu blocks had a pin matrix of something that resembled a cheese grater. Nowadays .. not so much. It had been a while since I watered and my latest "plunge" back in proved I should always keep up with the latest as I did not wash my rad out from new.. Luckily I had to tear down for re-config not to long after and decided to check my RASA.. I had flux buildup in the pins :( .. but now all is well as I did a boiling rad dance to make all well.
 
I do seem to remember reading a few threads from a few years ago where people were putting a drop of dish soap in their res, which they thought helped with bleeding from the foaming action of the soap. Other than that, I don't remember seeing anything about any kind of detergent as an additive. I would think that if it were really beneficial to our loops, it would be included with additives like PT Nuke and some of the other additives and premade fluids.
 
I am not a Chemist and I don't pretend to be (though I may play one on TV).

First water is considered a "good" solvent. It will hold, among other things, Iron, copper, Aluminum and allot of components of plastic. It is also great solvent for Oxygen (which causes corrosion).

Now Pure water or Distilled water should be pure (other then Oxygen) in it, but many chemicals will persist through the distillation process if it is not done carefully. The idea is to get all other substances to turn to gas and leave the original water before the water boils. Such substances (like Alchool, Chlorine, most acid's etc) can be removed. When the water boils we then collect that gas until the water evaporates. Continued boiling will result in liquefaction or boiling of other substances.

Boiling water will not kill many bacteria or algae, not to mention that alcohol, chlorine and so many other chemicals will be brought through the distillation process. Granted distillation of water to remove purities is rather efficient, but hardly enough alone to eliminate impurities. Don't beleive Me? Then turn on your video camera, take a nice scoop of sewage, distill it, then drink it...

Now with the idea of solvents. Water is a solvent. It has the capacity to hold X amount of substances. If you add another substance (lets say Y) it will decrease the ability for X to be dissolved. In this example we can say that we will add silver to the water, and that silver will prevent more copper from entering the water. Besides for silver being EXTREMELY TOXIC when dissolved, it may also have other negative side effects to a water cooling system.

Remember Oxygen is almost always present in water, and in our water cooling systems we are almost always introducing more oxygen. Oxygen and Water will corrode Copper where it will start shiny and get more and more darker, and eventually green.

So we can do two things. A) Eliminate the Oxygen by dissolving something else, or B) inhibit the ability of Oxygen too interact with copper (or plastic, rubber's, etc). The Automotive industry, Nuclear Industry, Coal Industry, Chemical Industry, and just about every one wants products and processes that prevent corrosion. Our modern world is full of things breaking down, and we work hard at creating new ways to stop that from working on it. Many people are working hard at making chemicals that make things work better and last longer. Some of these things can be used in our systems. It just takes knowledge, experience, experimentation, and time to get a product that works for OUR needs.

Now we can use these same chemicals in our loops to control how our solution reacts in our system. We can add lubricants to help with pump parts, anti-corrosives to prevent oxidization and dissolving of copter, plastic and rubier, and other stuff. To deny our water loops of these things is to put our heads in the sand and say "Well all is good down here in pure water land!".

The problem is, it takes a person with real understanding and a scientific approach. Looking at reports on the Web is hardly scientific. Many things maybe going wrong in our systems. The components can be breaking down, the plastics and rubbers deteriorating, etc. Some get reported, others do not... and we rarely hear reports that "all is well"...

Now onto surface tension. I know that soap reduces surface tension. Surface tension is most people see on the TOP of water, but in fact it surrounds water. Its the water molecule begin attracted to other water molecules and away from other things (like plastic, rubber and reportedly metals). The idea was that if we reduce surface tension we can get out water molecules to get closer to the molecules of our heat/cooling surfaces thus improve our performance.

I have seen reports with minimum impact regarding surface tension reduction methods. Most successful reports are of substances that reduce surface tension and also provides an additional benefit (like lubrication, anti-bacterial, anti-corrosive, etc), We probably wont noticed the effects of reducing surface tension in our systems.

The tests I depend on are not accounts from user posting in. They are carefully written, carefully carried out studies. The auto industry is a great source for information since they deal with the same problems we do, but they have allot more money to solve the issues.

Corrosion does happen. I am not limiting this to the corrosion of copper but also tubing, paint, copper, rubber, nickle platting etc... These things will form in our loops and we will see the result of them on our cooling systems. The corrosion of copper will reduce its effects to transport heat to the water. Tubes will leave plastic in the water which will gather (among other places) on our copper in our blocks and our rads. We will also see lubricants from pumps, and the inevitable rubber gaskets get corroded.

The MCP655 pump is a rather tough :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: and will probably not stop if you pump sewage through it. Its the reason we still use it after all this time. It is actually a pump designed for and used in Aquariums.

So we take a solution that has water in it. We run it through a cycle of heating and cooling. We add some electrical charge (to encourage corrosion) and we get a perfect situation to start building "goo", "gunk", "debris". Many of this will be transparent in pure water, or not very visual when we place it against something like a nice copper heat sink. So no one complains, or they simply clean it up on their regular tear down and move on. But if we add Dyes to the liquid, all of this once transparent crud will now become VERY visual, and thus we will point to it and say "ITS THE DYE!". When infarct it is simply colored copper, plastic, lubricants, dust, algae, or anything else that has made it through our system.

The actual amount of Dye used to color your water is relatively small. I have seen small tubes of the stuff. Also, you may get UV reaction to many things. I remember my dorm neighbors drawing on their walls with Laundry Detergents which would appear invisible on white walls, but light up under a black light!

I also see allot of mention about algae, but almost no mention of bacteria. Bacteria is EVERYWHERE. Its found 5 miles down in solid rock, in water that exceeds 320f, and in everything we eat, touch, look at, and breath. Its tough, it multiplies EXTREMELY fast, and it survives and adapts. We treat our water with Anti-Alga's, but do nothing to stop bacteria. Also Bacteria lives in total darkness and is often very transparent (unless you DYE it!).

The main reports of problems almost always occur around the CPU. I dont find this as a surprise since the CPU and the Pump are the two places with a magnetic charge, and the CPU block is the most easily seen and also intentionally has the largest surface area.

Not to mention that some/most dyes do not become gooey under any circumstance. They could also turn into a gas!

I do agree to the fact that plain water and Algae will see little problems, except for the long term corrosion that WILL take place... I also know that these problems will be less visible to most people (and thus less reports on the forums). I do reject the fact that pre-mixed fluids are all snake oils, but will concur that we do not know what is in these mixtures, nor if they do what they claim. That does not mean that there is not a conceded effort to actually create a successful liquid that meets most peoples need.

If your interested run controlled scientific studies. I would suggest having a controlled heat source that can put out a very steady and consistent amount of heat over a controlled amount of time. Also have a controlled cooling environment where the air pressure, air humidity and air temp is controlled. We would also want to control flow rate. Only then can we experiment with things and find out its effects on heat/cooling. After which we can study the results and methods, make changes to the process, and come to a reasonable conclusion. Anything less can not only be untrue, but quite misleading and/or false.

Now you can pick apart this VERY long post. There is allot in it, and I am sure there is allot to add and correct. I am not a chemist, and I am certainly not going to write a white paper on the subject. But what I can conclude is that A) water alone is not the best solution, B) We are all just guessing as too what is the best solution, because few of us have the time or will power too actually follow a scientific processes, and C) that Dyes are visual by nature and thus when a problem does occur, the Dye will do its job and make it MORE visual.

I would love to see this topic talked about in an open and fun way, but I hope people will see this post in its entirety.
 
I would love to see transparency within the industry. I want to know what is in Feser, what dyes are used, etc... I want to see people do short term and long term controlled scientific tests on this stuff... I know people who love chemistry as much as we all love water cooling, its just hard to find people who are willing to do the work, give all of the information away for free, and then walk away. Chances are, if you are willing to do the work to study this stuff, then you will be even more willing to take your experiences, share what you need, bottle the rest, and sell it to us.

Reports of Goo, are abundant. Has anyone actually looked at this goo under a microscope? How about center fuse it and then study what is in it? Is it plastic? Bacteria? Algae? Copper? Aluminum? Paint? Nickle Plating? Brass? Rubber? Dust? Dirt? Sperm?

I would bet on Sperm... People are really intense about there computers, and for some reason... Everytime you see someone on TV turn on a black light they find SPERM!
 
Since I haven't been water cooling that long I'm going to wait for one of the other members to make a comment on any transparent "goo" they have, or have not, cleaned out of their loops, but refused to mention.

Past that, you have a lot of misinformation in that article. I'm not going to sit here and nit pick it, but one glaring oversight was, "...oxygen is almost always present in water." Actually, since oxygen is one of the molecules needed to make water, it will always be present. H2O and all that jazz.

One thing I will note. If what you say is true, then where are all the new people asking if this transparent goo is normal? The first thing a person does when encountering an unknown is to ask more experienced persons if they have seen it before. I'm not seeing that here. :shrug:
 
I'm sorry, but your post makes little sense. You may call this picking it apart, but the first very glaringly incorrect portion is in your description of distilling water. It's just completely wrong as I've always understood it. The way water is distilled is by boiling the water, trapping the vapor and condensing the (relatively) pure water vapor into a clean container. You don't heat up the water and "get all other substances to turn to gas and leave the original water before the water boils."

As far as the rest, anecdotally, I have yet to see anyone complain of clear goo, nor hear of anyone's flow slowing to a crawl or temps shooting up because of it. Is it scientific? No. But after doing this for a few years, you'd think I'd have seen someone with the problem if it is as pervasive as you say it is.

You're partially correct that water can oxidize (not really corrode) components. That's one of the reasons we do regular maintenance and cleaning on our loops. Check out this piece by Conundrum under "Inside my CPU block". A little ketchup cleans it right up.

Even with oxidation and potential breakdown of tubing, none of that happens anywhere near as fast as I've seen dyes break down. You can clean your loop once a year with distilled + biocide and never experience performance problems.

Loops with dye lasting a year without degraded performance are few and far between, though people don't normally post up and say 'hey, my dye lasted a year without issue!', so maybe it does happen. We tend to get problem posts, not random happy posts. The problem posts that do come up with blocked flow and reduced performance almost all have one thing in common - dye.

You can accept that the biggest problem leading to these issues is the breakdown of dye or not. It's completely your choice. If you want to run the scientific tests you say are needed, more power to you; I just think it would be a lot of time for little return. If someone does it and is able to prove us wrong, we'll welcome their testing with open arms. Until then I'm going to do the same thing I've done for years and rely on the collective wisdom and anecdotal evidence of multiple communities that tell me dye is bad, dye is what breaks down and dye is what clogs blocks.
 
Well actually I brought up the issue because when I built My HTPC I was using Red Primo Chill, and 3 years later... with only top offs... the machine not only tuns great, but the block was relatively perfect. That machine is a High Pressure, low flow machine.

I ran the same dyed Primo Chill in the main PC, and it too ran without issue with multiple years without a change in coolant. I eventually changed because I hated how sticky the stuff felt. When I opened that machine (after 4 years) I had WHITE stuff blocking some of the jets in the CPU block. After 4 years, and the fact that a pin could not fit through these jets, the discovery of some blocked jets was hardly surprising or noticeable to report.

In fact in both machines I have yet to experience what you all have been stating will happen.

As far as your link... have you ever seen scientists use dye (like on a petri dish). Kinda looks like those CPU pics.

Yes water has the Oxygen atom in the molecule H20. But it also has the molecule Oxygen (or O2) in it, I think if you study fish a bit more you might start to understand why dissolved Oxygen in water is so important, because without it fish will die (though many species can breath air)
 
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i been hearing about Mayhems Dyes was really good and been tested over and over
 
Example:rule.

Tell you what, you post pics of loops clogged that have no dyes, and I'll post pics of glogs with dyes. You go first.
 
the only thing i can see from using distilled water is dark spots on my nickel. now its your turn lol
 
even if it gets under the nickel witch it is... its copper so it will be ok
 
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The idea of this being a bacterial growth is a real possibility. In a cleaning (without dye) it will be really hard to see, and would probably appear slightly off in transparency slightly dirty, etc. It would NOT be green (unless its has the ability to perform photosynthesis, which some bacteria have)

It will probably not be a large build up, but in most cases a film that would be hard to see against a copper colored background. Adding Dye too the loop would make the Bacteria VERY visible compared to no dyes.

An Algacide would probably not kill Bacteria, or would not effect it much. However I would assume a chemical like anti-freeze would, even in small quantities, would make bacteria growth a unlikely occurrence.

We must remember that Algae is a plant, while Bacteria is, well Bacteria... They play by different rules, have different structures and life cycles, the feed differently and require different conditions to live. Let me put it in this perspective... Bacteria is as Alien to Plants as Humans are too plants.

In some cases we could be dealing with a fungi, but given what I do know about fungi, its unlikely since fungi generally like a damp substrate and generally does not survive in liquid environment.
 
We're not saying algacide, we're saying biocide. PT Nuke PHN and silver kill coils are biocides. Bacteria should not live in there any more than algae should.

Dye doesn't make otherwise invisible things show up. The gunk I've seen is thick, so thick that it impedes flow. If there were any sort of clear buildup to that extent, it would be painfully obvious to the naked eye, not hard to see at all.

Based on "It will probably not be a large build up, but in most cases a film that would be hard to see against a copper colored background. Adding Dye too the loop would make the Bacteria VERY visible compared to no dyes."...maybe you don't know what we're looking at / talking about? This is a dye clog:

gunk1.jpg


gunk2.jpg


gunk3.jpg


gunk4.jpg


If there were any clear bacterial buildup that looks like that, you'd know it, clear or not. Dye didn't just bring that out. Dye caused it.
 
I'm sorry, but your post makes little sense. You may call this picking it apart, but the first very glaringly incorrect portion is in your description of distilling water. It's just completely wrong as I've always understood it. The way water is distilled is by boiling the water, trapping the vapor and condensing the (relatively) pure water vapor into a clean container. You don't heat up the water and "get all other substances to turn to gas and leave the original water before the water boils."

Ultimately this does not have much impact on the overall discussion. Because of this limited impact I did not go in depth about distillation. What I said was not wrong, it was incomplete and brief. So here is a bit more on Distillation.

When you heat a mixture the first things to turn to gas has the lowest boiling point. Alchool and Bleach are in fact gases, and will leave the "mixture" first. These low boiling point products leave the water first and will contaminate the equipment. Removal of these chemicals is necessary when the water starts to boil (at 100c), which is done with great consistency. At 100c, the mixture contains water and any element that is has a boiling point greater then 100c. The steam will in fact bring some of these chemicals with it. Thus its why double and triple distilling is done.

I will give you the fact that Distilled water is REALLY pure compared to naturally found water, but Distilled water will continue to contain impurities. That is why Reverse Osmosis, Osmosis and often Centrifuging is done. The reason this is important is because it pertains to the corrosive nature of Distilled Water (or Pure Water). Its not to say that Tap water is less corrosive then Distilled water, but a water with the proper non-corrosive impurities will prevent re-ionization within your loop. Unfortunately this re-ionization will usually involve your copper.

None the less, Water is Corrosive in nature...
http://www.finishing.com/147/97.shtml
http://www.finishing.com/82/21.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purified_water
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distilled_water

Also, I have heard that De-ionized water is somehow corrosive when distilled is not. This is not true. De-ionized means it lacks mineral ions. Distillation also removes these ions... Distillation is much more pure then De-ionized water. (see links above)
 
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If there were any clear bacterial buildup that looks like that, you'd know it, clear or not. Dye didn't just bring that out. Dye caused it.
I am not arguing to argue. I am attempting to get people to look past reports and horrible/shocking looking pictures and figure out what Really is going on.

In the pictures that you present it is clear (no pun intended) that the gunk is not dye alone. It may have been cause by a highly corrosive dye, but usage of such dyes in a water loop is as irresponsible as using a highly corrosive biocide. I am not even certain to the authenticity of some of these photos. I fear allot of companies maybe putting out false information about their competitors, or have other motives. Its not the first time a company has done something like that on OCForums.

Maybe the person who did that, used 10 tubes of dye... for that EXTRA red effect... or used a corrosive dye. Hell Cyanide was created and found in a process that was for the manufacture of dye. You wont see me advocate the use of Cyanide Dye in anyone's loop, though it would be one hell of a biocide.'

They could of also used an Organic Dye that would of been akin to feeding the algae, bacteria hell even microscopic animals a big bag of food. Ut can be a million things... God only knows what that is... I would be less surprised to find out it was Raspberry Jelly then a Dye.

I don't sell dye, liquid, or anything... I can only tell you what I experience and what I know... You will hear Me promote NewEgg and JNCS way before you ever hear me promote dyes. I would be more inclined to recommend not using dyes for the fact that it actually lowers the effectiveness of the system.
 
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There is a MAJOR underlying issue here. Its how people consume information on the internet. First, the most shocking and most controversial examples get the most links, and thus the most page rank. The shock and awe effect. So finding pics like that is easy.

The more outrageous and shocking something is, the more likely we will hear about it. While the less shocking, normal behavior we come to expect is passed over as insignificant, and definitely is not referenced or linked.

I fear to point out examples of where this has/is happening, because of the clear blow back that will follow. The main examples of this are usually highly controversial, and would spark a huge highjack.

The only example I can link that are not debated are the MPAA's handling of the CSS release (especially in regard to 2600) and what is now known as the Streisand Effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

For some reason, people on OCForums except this effect on NewEgg reviews, and in other areas, but when it comes to Dyes and Additives, it becomes a big fight.

I guess it is human nature to be afraid of what we can not explain or see. Just look at Nuclear Energy and how fearful people are about "Radiation". If you ask them why they are afraid they will struggle to find reason, or simply generalization. Little do they know that LIGHT is Radiation... That we are bombarded by radiation... That it comes from the ground and the Sky. That we have billions, if not trillions of neutrinos passing through us every second.

As someone in information systems, delivering correct and accurate information to the right people at the right time is a topic of high interest too Me. I see this hatred for all things except water as just another fear of the unknown. The big bad chemicals that will ultimately eat away our machines... How only something as seemingly harmless and natural as water could be good (when in fact water is not harmless).

I guess my argument isn't even about the Dyes... Its about this fear people have. I must acknowledge that it doesn't help that these companies that make these pre-mixed liquid do not even release whats in there products, and that the tubes people buy is labeled "Red Dye" with no mention of what it actually is.

Edit: Who am I kidding, No one will read all of this, most people will skim it and continue to sell their position, and regardless of what ideas I present, no concept larger then a few words will compete against a grotesque pic.
 
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