I don't disagree with anything you said in previous posts, but yes, If I look at My copper pipes they have darkened over time, and is even green at some spots. They are 40 years old.
They are still there though, after a flow of some several thousand (or more) gallons of cold water over the years. They haven't dissolved. Dissolving is not the same as corrosion, and the corrosion is like as not due to such a massive volume of turbulent, likely oxygen-laden, water passing through them over the years.
So, a copper block in a 5 year old watercooling system with the same warm* water in it will come off far far better than copper pipes in a house, which we know survive water pretty damn well.
* Gas solubility decreases with increasing temperature, unlike most solids whose solubility increases with increasing temperature.
I personally want to know what people find after 4 years of running distilled water. If they find a shiny copper block then I would be very happy to use pure water. I really would hate to have to take apart my system every year to shine up My Components. Personally I have used pre-mixed fluids and even had an aluminum res and copper block/rad. I found the copper to be shiny as new, though I found a small amount of tanned crud in the jets of the block (which actually blocked most of them). I did not expect to get to this point in the conversation, and I assumed that the stuff that blocked some of the jets where plasticizers (and could not be avoided). Unfortunately I did not keep the stuff. I do have pictures of it (I think) but that is it. I am no longer going to use the STORM Rev 2 block, as these jets are very small (smaller then a pin) and will probably plug again.
No clear goo?
From what I know about plasticizers, is that they are not good stuff. My Sister is responsible for maintaining multiple grants studying these chemicals and the research is not looking positive. Unfortunately these plasticizers are in just about everything. From the paint we use on our walls to the plastic we use to store our food in. Even the bottled water that so many people feel is safer then the tap water we get. If they are found to have the effects people are studying, then we will be in real trouble. These plasticizers may even be one of the causes of why so many Americans are FAT (yet, sitting on our asses all day certainly does not help).
Unless I saw some evidence to the contrary, I'd say that plasticisers are unlikely to be very water soluble, and not soluble enough to form gunk. Looking at the chemical structures (looking up the ones on wikipedia), most have long alkyl chains or large aromatic groups which will render them very hydrophobic. If you added them to a water flow, they'd probably agregate, but I doubt you could get enough to leech out of the plastics to form the amount of goo people are seeing.
I watch allot of documentaries, and I see the person who is questioning the theories, and they irritate the hell out of Me. Especially when they have no other theories themselves. So I understand. But regardless of these feelings, the nay Sayers are often right, and it is not the job of the Naysayers to prove/disprove the hypothesis. If you are going to make a claim, then you should have the proof to establish the claim.
I am not even claiming that the Dye is blameless. What I am attempting to establish is that proper usage of chemicals (including Dyes) is needed. That these cases are certainly improper usage of chemicals, most likely made by ignorance and/or playing mad scientist who mix without thinking.
My theory (posting this for the third time). Either
(a) The dye itself aggregates, forms goo.
(b) The dye brings about aggregation of other particulates within the system.
Or, thinking about what you've said (but I'm not so sure of this one):
(c) The dyes somehow help leech plasticisers.
What I would like is for people to be a little more patient and not jump to conclusions, but instead find root causes of problems.
Now I have a counter theory. My theory is that improper usages of PTNuke and/or PTNuke + certain Dyes can cause these issues. We may even have a case where a better Biocide that is not know to exit in "gelatinous lump's" and may be more stable and work better. It is definitely worth looking into PTNuke as a potential suspect, for if it is partially to blame, then we all can provide better advice and also use better products. Personally, now knowing what PTNuke is, I would not recommend it.
I did a quick google of a couple of these agents:
- Copper (I) and copper (II) salts are typically very water soluble and will not precipitate. If they did, they would not do so as goo, more like small hard crystals (or microcrystalline material, at worst). Think table salt.
- Benzalkonium chloride is a more organic molecule, and works by interrupting the fatty lipidic parts of the cellular membrane of life in your loop. Despite being positively charged it is quite lipophilic, so perhaps if this aggregated it might form a goo. However, how much is added to a typical loop?
Instructions & Ingredients:
Use: Add 4 drops per 1L of coolant for approx. 2ppm
Active Ingredient: Benzalkonium chloride 1.65%
2 ppm. Yeah, not enough for a pile of goo at all.
Are silver IONS (which kill the bacteria) toxic? I find allot of contradictory information. I do know silver can be as toxic as lead (and mercury), but only in certain conditions. I personally do not know what conditions these are, other then that solid silver (found in jewelry) is not toxic.
No idea, personally.
It is interesting that we find that Silver Ions enter the water at a quick enough rate to stop the algae from dying, but that we assume copper does not ionize into the water. Or maybe I am wrong in assuming that Copper does not ionize pure water.
Ionic material will dissolve in water as they form favourable intermolecular interactions. Solid metal is far less soluble.
It's important to recognise that the form a given element is in, especially in terms of oxidation state and charge, is key to it's solubility. e.g. Palladium(II) and Palladium(0) salts (such as Pd(OAc)
2 and (Ph
3P)
2PdCl
2) are soluble in organic solvents. If your reaction goes wrong and you get neutral palladium black (metal) it will precipitate.
4 years ago everyone was under the assumption that Copper would ionize distilled water, and back then distilled water was NOT recommended. In fact back then it was highly recommended that you do NOT use distilled water, and that water should be mixed with an anti-corrosive agent (like Anti-Freeze). The change in attitudes and recommendation is quite interesting, though I do not know when (or why) attitudes changed. I do know that Anti-freeze makes a mess and if spilled is hard to remove.
Don't know about this whole change, I've only flirted with water cooling and that was years ago.
im confused as to what this "goo" is you keep refering to. im sure if someone like david knew what this "goo" is. he would have said something already or someone else would have.
If it's goo, it's most likely something covalent and greasy, with lots of alkyl chains. Plasticisers are plausable, but I'd struggle to explain how they got there.
second maybe im captin obvious here but O2 is being mis-used in your post. the air we breath and is around us is not pure oxygen. if distilled water is exposed to what we breath it would also be getting the other(s) things in it as well.
Air is roughly 80/20 nitrogen/oxygen, plus ca. 1% other stuff. So, you'll get dissolved nitrogen as well, but oxygen is more soluble. This has some nice charts:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gases-solubility-water-d_1148.html
I've read every single post, word by word, and I still don't know what GreenJelly is trying to get across other than "it could be more than just the dyes' fault". I don't think anyone has really disagreed with this, nor did I see that anyone was entirely refuting any other plausible reasoning. Well, other than a pure system with proper application of a biocide "shouldn't clog".
Clogging Potentials:
Excessive dye
Impure dye
Excessive biocide
Incorrect biocide
Impure water, tap water
Light (algae, some bacteria)
Other contaminants (organic or inorganic)
Mismatched waterblock/radiator metals (Cu & Al)
Mixing additives
Solutions alter the mechanics of raw water (anything with a solute in a solvent -- salt water).
NaCl + H2O = Na+ + Cl-.
Chemistry II basics, you're going to "break apart" O2 and H2 in a solution reaction. 2H2O = H2 + O2. But I won't get into that as an entire semester is built around these principals... Just know that too many chemicals in a water system is going to make for interesting "science" regardless of how you slice it (organic or not).
It takes some doing to split water, which makes it a focus of some bleeding-edge inorganic chemistry.
In a quantity of water that should typically max out around a liter or two, a drop or two of dye isn't going to cause the massive build-up of purple gunk in the picture posted. Neither is a drop or two of PT Nuke. Mixing the two could be of inconsequential effect, however. There's no telling how the salt/solute of each will react with each other without knowing their complete chemical write-up and molar densities. Say hello to precipitates...
This is a fair point.
