How much did you spend on your water cooling setup poll?

[Moto7451]

Things like that interest me too Cathar. I may want to work something like that into my studies if I do end up deciding to be a Psych major .

Evercool waterblock: $21 (but it was a gift so I got it for free)
Heatercore: $11
Pump: $22
Tubing: $10
$5 Fan + H2O + some nick nacks: $10
Total cost out of pocket: $53

Temps: 37° Idle 45-49° Load (fan speed is variable based on temp so it jumps around in that range, 45° is at full speed)

 

[cripy]

$360 for mine:

Dual 120mm Heatercore
TDX s478 block
20ft clearflex 60 tubing
dual floppy bay res
10 metal hose clamps (from lowe's)
DD-D5 Pump
MCT-40
UV Blue dye.

20c idle, 29c full load

 

[Froggy]

Mine is in the purchasing phase-

Thermochill PA160(Have) 95.00
Swiftech Storm 75.00
Viperfang GPU Block 70.00
Swiftech MCP655 75.00
Misc. Parts and shipping 30.00
Total 345.00

 

[ls7corvete]

All these items have been around for a long time and have always been available. It's not that water-cooling has gone backwards, it's just that there are more expensive to manufacture, higher-quality, and more upmarket products available than there used to be, and guess what? People are buying it. If the market exists for it, then what's the problem?

The problem is that the new stuff is all $$$$. Who is developing for the budget WCer? Can we not improve on the blocks you mentioned and retain a budget minded setup with what we have learned?

 

[Froggy]

The problem is that the new stuff is all $$$$. Who is developing for the budget WCer? Can we not improve on the blocks you mentioned and retain a budget minded setup with what we have learned?

But isn't also true that when watercooling was "new" CPUs were only putting out 40-75 watts. Nowadays 100-200 is the norm and people who use GPU coolers also have seen a large increase in heat output. Weren't the GF4s only putting like 25-30 watts vs 60-100 watts for a modern GPU? So I think a lot if the cost increase is due to needing to cool 2-3 times more wattage.

 

[sicloan]

~$450 for mine

Weapon heatercore & 2x shroud & 4x fans = ~160
tubing = ~ $25
Swiftech Storm = $82 after shipping
Maze 4 acetal & ramsinks = ~65
T-line & Fillport = ~$20
Worm drive clamps = $10
D5 pump = $75
hydrX & anti algae = $10

= $450 give or take.

 

[rogerdugans]

I voted for the $100 or less option.

That is what I would be likely to put into a conventional system at this point, for a few of reasons:
A) I am a cheap so and so.
2) Brand new, best-of-the-best performance is generally NOT that much greater than can be achieved with used, older stuff for a LOT less money.
III) I have a lot of computers to cool and not enough budget.

I did buy one expensive, top-notch piece of water cooling equipment as a splurge once a few years ago: Cascade block.
That has been my only real spending-spree type purchase.

Last of all: My water cooling has become somewhat less than conventional at this point, and most of the work is going into Overkill.
To replicate what I have so far would cost somewhere in the area of $3000, though I have paid for almost nothing.

 

[johan851]

But isn't also true that when watercooling was "new" CPUs were only putting out 40-75 watts. Nowadays 100-200 is the norm and people who use GPU coolers also have seen a large increase in heat output. Weren't the GF4s only putting like 25-30 watts vs 60-100 watts for a modern GPU? So I think a lot if the cost increase is due to needing to cool 2-3 times more wattage.

Another factor is the increased cost of components due to more commerical manufacturers like Swiftech jumping on board. When I first got my watercooling stuff a couple years ago, my two Chevette cores ran $20 each, plus $40 for my Danner Mag 3. Now everyone is picking up a 12v DC pump for $70-$80 and a Black Ice or Thermochill radiator for another $80-$100. That's more than double the price. There's a lot less DIY and a lot more custum built components. You can still go cheap, but most people prefer not too.

 

[Cathar]

You can still go cheap, but most people prefer not too.

I think that this is the most valid point made.

We have seen radiators drop in price quite dramatically just recently. It would seem that economies of scale have hit home here and finding some correlation between what radiators cost to make in bulk for cars, and getting some leverage on that towards computers. Never has there been a time in the past such that we have a variety of specifically manufactured for computer watercooling radiators, and for quite reasonable prices. Used to be a day where it was a trip to the junkyard, or getting hold of a raw core and having to DIY up a shroud and mount, but those days seem to be disappearing rapidly now with the new breed of cheaper radiators.

For pumps, this is always going to be a problem. Costs haven't changed, but people's tastes have. The old cheap'n'nasty AC pumps that people used to always use, and which had leaks and/or failures quite regularly have been replaced with more convenient DC powered pumps of generally much higher quality and of better size for fitting into a case. The choices haven't been taken away, they've merely been expanded upon. In fact, quality DC pump prices have been falling quite rapidly since computer water-cooling has become more popular. Used to be a day when the only decent DC water pump would set you back around $150, nowadays we can get quite decent small DC pumps for $50 (C-Systems MAG), and quite powerful and small DC pumps for $75 (Laing DDC). If people still think that's expensive, we only need to look back 3 years to realise that these prices are amazingly cheap in comparison.

Really pumps lately have all been about moving to DC convenience because that's what people want it seems. There's also the DC converted Eheim 1046/1048's from Germany, which cost more than the AC models, but people buy them for the DC convenience, and prices for such have been falling. Sure the $25-40 AC pumps haven't disappeared, but people don't want them. They've used them, typically found that they were comparitively large, noisy, hot and/or unreliable, and are after cool, small, quiet, and reliable DC pumping performance for their systems. Again, this is a sign that the market has chosen what it wants and is prepared to pay for what it wants. This is a good thing, because it promotes the development of what the market wants and as time goes on prices will come down as volume ramps.

This leaves us with waterblocks. Travis Dawes has hit the nail on the head. CPU's nowadays are a heck of a lot hotter and if you look at the more modern CPU waterblocks that cool them well, there's a staggering difference in quality and machining time compared to the simple lumps of metal and plastic that were about 4-5 years ago. It's not just a simple case of "why can't we just make the same blocks cheaper", because if that were possible, it would be done just like that. Again, the market has chosen what it wants, and in general is prepared to pay for it. It's not like the lesser performing simpler block designs have suddenly disappeared. They haven't. They're still there. It's just a simple fact of costs. You can't make a block that costs $50 to make and then sell it for $25.

 

[ls7corvete]

yes, I am very glad to see black ice's new pricing through DD. Also swiftech seems to be going in the right direction as well as c-systems.

We need to show the manufacturers that there is demand for cheap equipment or they will not do it. Continue to show demand for $$ and they will continue to do that.

You say peoples tastes have changed but I dont see it that way. I see it as more of a flock of sheep.

 

[Cathar]

You say peoples tastes have changed but I dont see it that way. I see it as more of a flock of sheep.

I see it as a transition from back-yard workshop material to a refined higher quality mainstream application.

The size of the watercooling market as grown in leaps and bounds in the last few years, and that's also because it is more accessible with better quality equipment that's easier to use and therefore makes it more palatable for a wider user base beyond the hard-core enthusiast.

If you're content to label the wider market base as a "flock of sheep", while that same "flock of sheep" are providing the market that in the end achieves just what it is that you're ranting about (being lower costs), then your argument holds absolutely no water. Higher quality and lower prices only occurs through volumes of scale beyond that achievable by the hard-core enthusiast market alone, and if it takes what you call a "flock of sheep" to achieve that, then why the heck are you insulting them?

I do confess to utterly fail to see where you're going with this. Quality has gone up. Ease of installation has improved. Prices have come down for items that were once very expensive. The only thing that has changed is the smallish increases in waterblock prices, but once we factor in inflation and the fact that the blocks today require 3-5x the machining time of a few years back, what's the problem?

You don't like forwards progress or something? You want water-cooling to remain a "special thing" just for the low-budget hard-core enthusiast? Not everyone fancies pulling apart old cars and using second-rate aquarium pumps, and soldering block of copper together in the shed with a blow-torch.

 

[ls7corvete]

I see it as a transition from back-yard workshop material to a refined higher quality mainstream application.

The size of the watercooling market as grown in leaps and bounds in the last few years, and that's also because it is more accessible with better quality equipment that's easier to use and therefore makes it more palatable for a wider user base beyond the hard-core enthusiast.

If you're content to label the wider market base as a "flock of sheep", while that same "flock of sheep" are providing the market that in the end achieves just what it is that you're ranting about (being lower costs), then your argument holds absolutely no water. Higher quality and lower prices only occurs through volumes of scale beyond that achievable by the hard-core enthusiast market alone, and if it takes what you call a "flock of sheep" to achieve that, then why the heck are you insulting them?

I do confess to utterly fail to see where you're going with this. Quality has gone up. Ease of installation has improved. Prices have come down for items that were once very expensive. The only thing that has changed is the smallish increases in waterblock prices, but once we factor in inflation and the fact that the blocks today require 3-5x the machining time of a few years back, what's the problem?

You don't like forwards progress or something? You want water-cooling to remain a "special thing" just for the low-budget hard-core enthusiast?

If no one says anything prices will not change. If DD sees siftech selling a 75$ block and everyone loves it how can they not take that into consideration with their next block.

Making the 12v pumps that used to be 150$ and using economies of scale to bring them down to 75$ when eveyone is happy with 40-50$ pumps still makes things more expensive. MAG seems nice, we will see how it does, I am hopefull.

Whatever does if for people but I dont see the advantage. Problem really is that they dont see the advantage, they think they do....

I doubt I am the only one surprised that 45% are currently paying >300 for a setup.

 

[rogerdugans]

Getting into the psychology of the matter-

I do think that the "flock of sheep" viewpoint has some merit-
There will always be those who simply choose to follow the crowd and get/use whatever the current favorite is. This is what "fashion" and "fads" are, and often market trends can largely be put in the same crowd.

But I think the other factors mentioned bear more responsibility for what we see in this poll, and in the increased prices of water cooling components.

Inflation is a BIG thing- it affects all purchasing we do, including pc parts. Stuff just costs more.

Hotter components- need more work to develop cooling solutions, so cost goes up. Materials and fabrication are more expensive, so cost goes up.

Ease of use- I think this plays a very large factor, personally, although that maybe not so much in the poll here. Overall in the market. Good performance from an easy to install system is more expensive than good performance from a system that is hard to install from the old days... Again, this gets down to more development time so it costs more.

The water cooling market is tremendously larger than it was, and I think this may be one of the leading factors as well:
people new to water cooling are more likely to spend top dollar on something that is easy, performs well, and gives them a feeling of confidence. After all, they have never put water in their expensive electronics before and a few more dollars to feel SAFE is something that most/many think is well worth it.
There are still plenty of us who build on the cheap side, either because they just don't HAVE the money, or because they enjoy the "bang for the buck" ratio.

I am very happy to see the increase in products: new stuff makes good USED stuff cheaper for me, and it means more product choices of better overall quality and performance, both new and used.
Where is the downside to THAT?

One other point that I have on the subject: we all have our own little perspectives and ways of doing things- personally, I do NOT live on the bleeding edge. My fastest machine is overclocked to about 2300mhz and "only" has 1gig of ram. I still use ide hard drives.
But you know what?
I am just waiting on some recently purchased USED ide hard drives to finish the fifth and sixth Gaming Rigs I own.
While it is true that I have spent bottom dollar for all of the stuff, and they are NOT "top of the line" machines by current standards, they can play almost any game currently available.

My point with that: there is no need for ME to have 6 game rigs, but it is MY hobby to build and mod machines, so I have lots (of cheap ones).
Others have the hobby of making just one REALLY nice machine using top-tier parts.

I like those of you who stay up to date, because YOU folks are my suppliers.
So please: keep putting my pitiful, old rigs to shame with your much more expensive, faster, fancier and just plain NICER computers....I need some new parts.

 

[Cathar]

If no one says anything prices will not change. If DD sees siftech selling a 75$ block and everyone loves it how can they not take that into consideration with their next block.

The Swiftech Storm costs $75 because it is an expensive block design to manufacture. It doesn't cost $75 because Swiftech decided that they wanted to boost margins.

If everyone buys it and loves it, then you need to be asking yourself why? What is it about the block that sets it apart? People aren't just going to shell out $75 for a block when a $50 block would do just as well. The $25 and $50 blocks are still there to buy. So what's the problem?

Making the 12v pumps that used to be 150$ and using economies of scale to bring them down to 75$ when eveyone is happy with 40-50$ pumps still makes things more expensive.

What? The point is that you can't buy what these modern DC pumps are offering in a cheap AC format. What's the problem here? The AC pumps are still available, and still at $40-50. No one has twisted anyone's arm, taken the AC pumps away, held a gun to their head and said "You MUST buy a $75 DC pump!".

People have more options now. So what's the problem?

Whatever does if for people but I dont see the advantage. Problem really is that they dont see the advantage, they think they do....

Nice of you to tell everyone what they're thinking, or rather what they should be thinking.

I doubt I am the only one surprised that 45% are currently paying >300 for a setup.

Why do you care? If you think you can do better, then perhaps you should go into production with your own kits. How would you spec them? What would they look like? What components would you put in them? What would the price be? I'd really like to know what you think that everyone should be doing and what they should all be using?

 

[Cathar]

So please: keep putting my pitiful, old rigs to shame with your much more expensive, faster, fancier and just plain NICER computers....I need some new parts.

LOL.

I do agree though. Water-cooling and computing in general is rarely about necessity. People don't really NEED the better parts, but they like to do it all the same because it's the hobby that gives them joy. To some people it may seem frivilous and wasteful, because really nobody needs anything more than the stock heatsink that comes with the CPU, but it's a hobby. It's not meant to make sense and be justifiable. To attempt to quantify it is doomed to failure. The same arguments don't just apply to water-cooling, they apply to all aspects of computing. Heck, not many of us really NEED anything more much than an old P3/500, except to play games, and then we can argue if we really need to be playing games either.

It's the same thing with cars, bicycles, motorbikes, etc. People trick out their vehicles with all sorts of expensive doohickeys that have minimal actual benefit based in a "need" pesperctive. What is wrong though is to assume that people who do such don't realise that either. Most hobbyists know full well that their expensive new toy wasn't needed, and perhaps doesn't exhibit much of an actual improvement, but that's not the point.

 

[Voodoo Rufus]

Swiftech used to sell a flat copper base block for near $50, and it didn't cost that much to manufacture. Then again, they had much less business back then too. An Eheim used to cost $60 before making or getting an AC relay hookup, and rads all depended how much you were willing to spend.

Oh yes, I love these new BI prices.....

 

[ls7corvete]

Why do you care? If you think you can do better, then perhaps you should go into production with your own kits. How would you spec them? What would they look like? What components would you put in them? What would the price be? I'd really like to know what you think that everyone should be doing and what they should all be using?

A MAG, a BIP or the new swiftech rad, CPU is a bit tough. I dont think its out of reach to get an improvement over the whitewater/RBX/6000 blocks. Make it two pieces, delrin top, copper base. Universal mounting.

How many of the storm users know correctly the temp difference between the 6000 and the storm?

That would be an interesting poll as well.

Anything more than that I think people should look elsewhere. Be it peltiers at low or high volts or a phase system

 

[Cathar]

So basically what you're after is a $50 Storm, instead of a $75 Storm? Or when in total kit form (radiator, fans, pump, reservoir, tubing, etc) a $175 kit instead of a $200 kit. Does that about sum it up?

 

[ls7corvete]

You said the storm's price comes from increased time manufacturing. Remove that but stay ahead of old designs. Like you said, people wont care how much it beats them by, as long as it beats them.

Use simple mounting and assembly to benefit price and ease of use.

WCing is not the only option, I dont see how you cannot look at the prices without comparing to other options.

 

[Cathar]

You said the storm's price comes from increased time manufacturing. Remove that but stay ahead of old designs. Like you said, people wont care how much it beats them by, as long as it beats them.

Use simple mounting and assembly to benefit price and ease of use.

WCing is not the only option, I dont see how you cannot look at the prices without comparing to other options.

So at its heart, are you proposing that watercooling as a whole, if it costs much more than $100, is not a cost-effective viable cooling technology?