My Jinu117 Modded Vapochill LS is FINISHED!!!!

[crfracer290]

Wait, didnt Dominick make a topic about hitting 5ghz and was shunned by everyone... It doesnt seem completely impossible to me though, but what do I know

 

[wa77ss]

Wait, didnt Dominick make a topic about hitting 5ghz and was shunned by everyone... It doesnt seem completely impossible to me though, but what do I know

Ya, pretty much Thats kinda why I made that comment though.

I wish I had a better temp probe though, cause my mach 1 has r402a in it as well dom. Would be interesting to compare temps

 

[crfracer290]

Ahh, sarcasm.

 

[jinu117]

Heh.. first of all.
#1. Undercharging gets you lower no load temp than overcharging a unit
#2. Cap tubing length is bit more restrictive in this unit while fully charged for load. What this makes happen is that it WILL get colder temperature up to about 150w, beyond that, it will not be as cold as my typical unit. So yes, in essence it is tuned for bit lower load. I don't usually mention this but all my units usually go through 1-2 hours of 200w actual load testing (if you have seen johann's thread about my load testing methodolgy you will find out it happens to be more demanding than what most people use... he reported me 2-3c temperature increase vs what he used to use).
Also, this means the compressor need to work harder. Hence the higher compressor temperature under load in general. I prefer making units that is 5-10c cooler on compressor temperature in general while still giving outstanding performance advanatage against what is available out there.
For the compressor used and gas used (r402a), this IS as far as I would go on balancing the system really. Think of it this way guys, tune the car with K&N filter, etc. You surely will get more HP however marginal it sounds. Maybe quicker response. But you do lose on few accounts. K&N filter is no way as good filtering system as usual factory one so you do risk particles getting into Engine (mostly fine but we have no 10 year old data, etc on this kind of things obviously), will eat up more gas in general
I used to make unit in this manner loong time ago on tuning until I decided to go more balanced approaches
Dominick is not lying, etc about it... The pics are taken by me in here and posted on XS as well.
As for dicussing with dominick, I tried to pursade him into more of how I usually tune things (yes higher load kill bit of idle and load temp below 130w)

 

[Gautam]

I don't think anyone said Dominick or you were lying...far far from it.

But I do agree with greenmaji, and I would prefer your "usual" tuning personally.

 

[greenmaji]

Ohh good greef no, I wasn't saying anyone was lying

So basily it was a cap tube sizing difference.

So we will see if C2D's are cool enough to take advantage of this tuning

 

[Super Nade]

dom, a very nice mod.

Now, it would be really great if you could work with me to put this up on the OCForums front page.

 

[dominick32]

Green, come on..

First of all. I DID NOT ASK FOR "NO LOAD" TEMPS.
I have no idea where you got this from. I would never make a special request for idle temps. <--- That makes absolutely no sense. I asked Jin to get as cold as humanly possible on the Vapo and my special request was -60*C or better BUT never did he mention that low idle temps would correlate to bad loading performance.

I think youre wrong here Green. These load temps look absolutely fine for a modified vapochill.

This is Johanns Raptor Mod,completed at the exact same time as myself (with the exact same components as me, he actually has a slightly better compressor.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1797304&postcount=39

My Jinu Vapo - Build Completed on 10/24/06
no load = -60
70 watt = -47
150 watt = -38
180 watt = -33

Johann Vapo - Build Completed on 10/25/06
no load = -57
70 watt = no data
150 watt = -40
185 watt = -36.6

So what are we looking at, a 4 degree difference in performance under 150w load modded vapo with r402a?

You are looking at two identical modified vapochills above you. One is built by Jinu and the other one build by Johann in the UK. They are exactly the same except for Johan has the Danfoss NL11F, which can only get in the UK. That NL11F should get around 2-4 degree celcius better performance than my own when tuned properly and fit right into that data above you.

I think you have your numbers wrong here Green. You are talking 10 to 18 degree temperature gains over my stock Vapo fully loaded. Can you show me a source where a modded Vapo LS performs significantly better than the two CURRENT modified vapos above you?

 

[dominick32]

dom, a very nice mod.

Now, it would be really great if you could work with me to put this up on the OCForums front page.

Thanks for the props Nade. PM sent.

 

[greenmaji]

I'm not saying performing better, it would just perform different. Asking for -60C on a SS DD with the NF9FX is asking for a system that holds down less load in order to see temperatures that low. And jinu117 just described what was different in his post, he described EXACTLY what I was talking about; He tuned the unit for 150W rather then his normal 200W heat load by putting a more resrictive cap tube on the system (and he caught me on the overcharged thing, I've been focusing on hardware rather then phase lately)
The US version of the NL11F is the NF11FX its a matter of 240V vs 120V and thats a different story its a slightly bigger more powerfull and louder compressor.

Your request would be better if your CPU's heat output is closer to 150W rather then 200W at the overclock your seaking to obtain. So it COULD be a good thing.

 

[dominick32]

The US version of the NL11F is the NF11FX its a matter of 240V vs 120V and thats a different story its a slightly bigger more powerfull and louder compressor.

Your request would be better if your CPU's heat output is closer to 150W rather then 200W at the overclock your seaking to obtain. So it COULD be a good thing.

Thats what me and Jin are hoping for. Maybe with Conroes lower thermal output (wattage) this type of tune will be beneficial at his optimal 70w to below 150w. If the current tune doesnt work out, we will figure something else out in a couple of months. I think thermal spec on the e6700 is 65watt stock voltage/clocks no??? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, I apologize if I came off abrupt. I guess I misinterpreted your original "dont slap me" post . hehe And the truth is that a Vapochill modified in Europe (like the UK Johann Example) will have the NL11F compressor and have a little bit more capacity to work on the tuning and should produce a good 2 to 4 degrees better than the standard compressor. Thats why some Vapo mods posted on the internet might seem to look slightly better than a US modded unit like my own.

However, I put all my trust in Jins tuning ability. He's a phase master and I trust his ability to gauge what kind of tune to use on my Vapo for optimal Conroe performance. If this tune doesnt work out, he would be glad to start working on something new.

 

[greenmaji]

Don't worry dominick32, I'm one of those people that notice the subtile details, I wasn't compairing your system with the 11series compressors
Jinu's custom unit for OPB was a NF11FX and no I didn't expect those results either.

And its also good to know that you were aware that the unit was being tuned for lower load, and yes the TDP is 65W but I havn't looked into calculating heat output overclocked.

I've wondered if he's considered a CPV option (rather then cap tube) for fine tuning, but thats probibly a better question for him.

 

[jinu117]

Nah... that NF11FX holds load at even lower temp than dominicks across ranges... all the way to 200w... Having bit more power to play with always helps
That aside, conroe escalates in heat much faster than A64 based on what i've found with my customers past 1.65v. Before that, it is decently cool chip. (hence air cooling guy usually not going too much more than that...)
But than, I realized not too many phase guys do either

As for CPEV... I have some here I've played with. One problem for simple SS is...
CPEV requires solid liquid column to work well. (you could put additional restriction after I guess... but that kind of defeats the purpose). It is fun to see -70c idle yes but in actual usage, gain is marginal if at all considering the cost. (i've also seen it doing worse in low load condition vs just stright cap tubing done properly). It's nice to be able to turn the knob for "optimal" condition. But i just can't justify associated size and cost for it... (you also need accumulator)

 

[greenmaji]

OH NOES! We need more Vcore! J/K

Oh, come on jinu you knew I knew about the accumulator

I didn't know it was tough to trap enough liquid (a steady supply) in the accumulator to make it function properly however.

 

[dominick32]

Guys. Does anyone know the generic Vapochill LS "fluke probed" evap temps at the different loaded levels:

unloaded, 70w, 150w, 180w, 200w.

This could help us here.

Thanks,
Dom

 

[greenmaji]

Dom... to get a clearer picture of what I was refering to, you would want those numbers (on average) for Jinu's normaly tuned NF9FX R402A units.

Temperatures are tough to look at directly, your missing abiant temperature, humidity and barometric preasure

 

[dominick32]

Hey Maj,
I put together a little spreadsheet and line chart to show Jin mod improvements at my current tune. Stock Vapo temps are probed evap temps, not LCD readings. The stock LS readings are ideal (absolute best stock vapo evap temps) The thing about Jins upgrade is never does he make any profound claims. When speaking to him he told me two things: 1. It will decrease idle/load temps from 5 to 15 degrees. Very honest.

2. It will decrease noise level.

My gains were about 11/12 degrees @ 70 watts and around 7/8 degrees lower @ 180 watts.

 

[greenmaji]

I know you definatly have improved bottom line temperature performance

In fact, I'm quite sure jinu could squeaze a few degrees out of the same components and gas that was in the unit in the first place, he re-engineered the systems from the gound up with effececy in mind (rather then bottom line cost of production say with a prefab. unit)

In other words I'm in agreement with that fact.. and if you noticed Im not the only one that noticed the difference.

http://www.ocforums.com/showpost.php?p=4758409&postcount=25

It just occured to me why it might be.

Now.. if you were to have this information on your spreadsheet along with the current information...

Dom... to get a clearer picture of what I was refering to, you would want those numbers (on average) for Jinu's normaly tuned NF9FX R402A units.

You would see what me and Gautam saw.

 

[dominick32]

Now.. if you were to have this information on your spreadsheet along with the current information...

You would see what me and Gautam saw.

I am in total agreement with you bro. On Jinu's average units you guys are seeing 150 to 200 watt loaded temps in the 40's, not low 30's.. I admit, I was a tad dissapointed that I didnt have 180watt -40 degree temps.

But, the fact of the matter is these Vapo mods will only net you on average from 5 to 15 degree temp drops. I must say, Jin has achieved those goals for me. There is no guarantee on a 15/20 degree temperature drop across the board on these modifications.

First lets see how my E6700 holds up at high 1.7 vcore and heat load. 180 to 200 watts in the 4 Ghz zone. If Jin did compensate idle for load temps I would definitely want to adjust the gas/tune a bit because indeed I wanted the coldest temps possible. But not at idle..NO LOAD

But, let me continue to express how pleased I am with his work and craftsmenship in these mods. I am very impressed with temperature drops and was hoping for better load temps, but not expecting them.

Cheers Maji. Thanks for the back and forth chat.

 

[crfracer290]

Either way, congrats Dominick, it was your 10 page thread that inspired me to start saving for phase.