The common misconception of the expensive Mac

[muddocktor]

Why do extra work that's not needed? They don't want the OS to go away from their hardware... Since they keep it under control like that, they can better address problems in software and hardware.

No, I call it more trying to keep a monopoly on all the hardware and software if they could myself.

I guess they don't want to have to support all different configurations of different hardware, but they also are keeping their OS locked into only themselves too, which is monopolistic in the extreme. They won't even license it to other OEM's, where the onus of support of the hardware would transfer to the OEM in question and not Apple. They are afraid of competition in the market, IMO, because they know they would get smoked by the likes of Dell and HP and cut into their rather healthy profit margins on their computers.

 

[inkfx]

This may be a little off-topic, but I'd rather post here than make a whole new thread. My dad asked me today how Mac makes their systems proprietary. I don't seem to understand how I can go buy a Mac, and install a Windows OS on it. However, I can not install a copy of OSX on my desktop. How does the OS know it's not going onto a Mac? I mean, aren't all Macs using Intel chips now anyway? It just doesn't make sense to me that hardware I can find in any major online retailer is made proprietary by Mac. Do they do special programming or something to get this done? If anyone could explain it to me, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

 

[Automata]

Custom firmware I think.

 

[Neuromancer]

No, I call it more trying to keep a monopoly on all the hardware and software if they could myself.

OH heck yah.

MS gets called a monopoly because they put a media player in wit hthe OS. And were SUED to make an OS that did not include a media player WTF?

Imagine if MS started selling PCs too?

The other software they sell still does not equal the strangle hold that apple has on its consumers. As most Mac users will tell you "My Mac does everything out of the box, I dont need to buy photoshop or dvd authoring software or a media player or..."

Guess its good only having 2% of the computer market, no one comes after you

 

[SolidxSnake]

This may be a little off-topic, but I'd rather post here than make a whole new thread. My dad asked me today how Mac makes their systems proprietary. I don't seem to understand how I can go buy a Mac, and install a Windows OS on it. However, I can not install a copy of OSX on my desktop. How does the OS know it's not going onto a Mac? I mean, aren't all Macs using Intel chips now anyway? It just doesn't make sense to me that hardware I can find in any major online retailer is made proprietary by Mac. Do they do special programming or something to get this done? If anyone could explain it to me, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

Well, aside from whatever custom firmwares and such, the hardware needs drivers for MacOS. Chances are your motherboard isn't compatible with MacOS. And last I checked they used different hardware (videocards were different, and the mobos were much different albeit same chipsets).

 

[inkfx]

Well, aside from whatever custom firmwares and such, the hardware needs drivers for MacOS. Chances are your motherboard isn't compatible with MacOS. And last I checked they used different hardware (videocards were different, and the mobos were much different albeit same chipsets).

How does Windows work on Mac if everything is so different?

 

[muddocktor]

Actually I think the video cards are the same for the Mac Pro as any other card, but uses a proprietary bios on it for Mac compatibility (Apple requirement, not a physical thing). And their motherboards I believe are based off of an Intel board but instead of using a bios they use a custom EFI for initialization. But the basic hardware is no different than other OEM's from what I understand, excluding the stuff for their iMac and hot plate designs.

 

[SolidxSnake]

How does Windows work on Mac if everything is so different?

Good point.. I'd figured special drivers were necessary for windows on the new macs.

I guess the last hardware i remember is the 6800Ultra (I think) in my neighbor's Dual PowerMac G5. It might have been AGP Pro (Looks like it at least).

 

[inkfx]

So I'm still stumped as to what stops me from installing OSX on my desktop. Is it that custom BIOS/EFI? Does OSX look for that when it's being installed? If so, why doesn't Windows run into problems?

 

[JamesXP]

You can install OSX on your desktop, although that is illegal and not to be talked about round these parts...

And windows is installed on a mac via Bootcamp

 

[inkfx]

Ok, so the only thing stopping me from installing OSX on my desktop is that it's illegal?

 

[SolidxSnake]

inkfx: google <removed by moderator> and first article should cover it.

I removed that part out of your post since it is related to illegally installing OSX on non-Apple equipment

 

[inkfx]

Thanks, that is exactly the information I was looking for.

 

[G3F0RC3<>R4D30N]

No, I call it more trying to keep a monopoly on all the hardware and software if they could myself.

I guess they don't want to have to support all different configurations of different hardware, but they also are keeping their OS locked into only themselves too, which is monopolistic in the extreme. They won't even license it to other OEM's, where the onus of support of the hardware would transfer to the OEM in question and not Apple. They are afraid of competition in the market, IMO, because they know they would get smoked by the likes of Dell and HP and cut into their rather healthy profit margins on their computers.

Monopoly? How can a company with a lower market share than that of "big brother" even help to create the thought of monopolization?

They aren't afraid of the competition because they've never considered the thought of licensing it out. And if Microsoft had done the same and not licensed the OS out to IBM, NEC, etc, back in the day, then you wouldn't think Apple should do it. Apple wants to be nothing like Microsoft....

And another fact to be taken into consideration is that Apple has always made their OS for their computers. I don't think they have ever put out any software for use on a non-Apple computer, with the exception of iTunes. This is why they were previously called Apple Computer.

Microsoft-Software company
Apple-Computer company

 

[muddocktor]

Actually, if you read some history Apple did license some other company to produce computers using their OS back in the 90's I believe. And IIRC, that company was making lower priced computers with good hardware than Apple too. I don't know the in's and out's of what happened but Apple ended the licensing or something and I think they ended up buying out that other company too. And that was the last of Apple's licensing saga to date. But there was a time when Apple actually had competition with their own OS. I think it scared the pants off of them.

EDIT: I call it a monopoly when the only way I can legally buy a computer with OSX is sold by one company. I consider OS's and hardware to be different animals myself and shouldn't be tied to just one company. If Microsoft hadn't gotten the OK from IBM when they developed the IBM PC that Microsoft would be able to sell their OS to everyone, you would be in the position of just a couple of companies selling computers, no computer parts in easily accessible stores like Newegg and we would all be paying through the *** for slower computers.

EDIT2: Here is a Wikipedia link to the Apple/Macintosh clone program.

 

[Captain Newbie]

This may be a little off-topic, but I'd rather post here than make a whole new thread. My dad asked me today how Mac makes their systems proprietary. I don't seem to understand how I can go buy a Mac, and install a Windows OS on it. However, I can not install a copy of OSX on my desktop. How does the OS know it's not going onto a Mac? I mean, aren't all Macs using Intel chips now anyway? It just doesn't make sense to me that hardware I can find in any major online retailer is made proprietary by Mac. Do they do special programming or something to get this done? If anyone could explain it to me, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

Macs have a TPM, along with some other stuff. (Dont steal mac os x.kext — it's a nasty little thing...)

Cloning is bad history, as muddocktor has lined out. The problem was, Apple did ALL the R&D, and the cloners stepped in and took their research and sold it at subpar.

 

[G3F0RC3<>R4D30N]

Macs have a TPM, along with some other stuff. (Dont steal mac os x.kext — it's a nasty little thing...)

Cloning is bad history, as muddocktor has lined out. The problem was, Apple did ALL the R&D, and the cloners stepped in and took their research and sold it at subpar.

I took the 'other' version of OSX for a test drive and it was okay, it hardly supported my hardware but, I think I would rather run the legal version.

This 'other' version has rendered the clones useless....

Actually, if you read some history Apple did license some other company to produce computers using their OS back in the 90's I believe. And IIRC, that company was making lower priced computers with good hardware than Apple too. I don't know the in's and out's of what happened but Apple ended the licensing or something and I think they ended up buying out that other company too. And that was the last of Apple's licensing saga to date. But there was a time when Apple actually had competition with their own OS. I think it scared the pants off of them.

EDIT: I call it a monopoly when the only way I can legally buy a computer with OSX is sold by one company. I consider OS's and hardware to be different animals myself and shouldn't be tied to just one company. If Microsoft hadn't gotten the OK from IBM when they developed the IBM PC that Microsoft would be able to sell their OS to everyone, you would be in the position of just a couple of companies selling computers, no computer parts in easily accessible stores like Newegg and we would all be paying through the *** for slower computers.

EDIT2: Here is a Wikipedia link to the Apple/Macintosh clone program.

When they licensed it out, was it not to Steve Jobs' founded company after he left Apple known as NeXT?

 

[Blackstar]

I can't see the point in using OSX when not only do I have essentially no clue how to use MacOS, but all of my software that I use is mostly incompatible with MacOS (as well as Linux).

That more than anything is stopping people from getting into something different. They stick to what they know and what is familiar. Most PC modders I have met and talked to don't like feeling clueless when it comes to computers (i.e. Macs) so they stick to what they find comfortable (PC hardware and software). You have yet been in a situation where anything you had to do needed to be done on Macs or Mac only software therefore for you it's a non issue to even attempt.

The fact of the matter is, despite Mac's decreasing prices and OS compatibility, there are still cheaper PCs out there that can do the same job. Well, besides looking stylish while sipping "coffee" at Starbucks. If stylish and trendy features are what you want then by all means get a mac. I'll stick to building PCs and overclocking

You're poor Kenny, you're family is poor. The choice of Mac over PC has little or nothing to do with style. Apple just makes more a point of it in their advertising. In 16 years I have yet to meet a Mac user who choose one (or did not choose one) based on it's appearance. And yet many people (not just PC people either) copy numerous mac designs and interface options. Vista looks more and more like Mac OS X every day.

For example, the colored iMacs come out in '98, everything afterward had 5 colored plastics on them. Even George Foreman grills. The aluminum Apple Displays came out, suddenly every Dell monitor is on an Aluminum stand. The iPhone comes out, now every cell phone and blackberry maker is copying everything from the interface to the phone's design itself. I can't tell you how many 'apple dock' programs there are for XP and Vista.... Sorry dude, they must be doing something right.

If you don't mind paying a somewhat healthy price premium for the hardware, which I proved with my comparisons of the Mac Mini and iMac, Blackstar.

While I could point out some of inaccuracies with your comparison list frankly, I just don't have the energy. You want to perpetuate the perception they are different and more expensive, by all means go ahead. Nothing myself or any other Mac person says or shows will change your mind, so I see no point in trying. Thing is, your comparison doesn't change the fact I have a brand new 1.83GHz Mac mini with a 200GB Hard Drive and 2GB of ram I got for $550 bucks with next day free shipping from ecomelectronics.com out of New York. (And I don't need any more keyboards or mice or DVD burners I have plenty of them already, so getting more is a disadvantage.)

Truth is, there are plenty of places where you can get deals on Apple hardware and upgrade Macs yourself with hard drives, ram, video cards, processors, OS's and yes, even overclock them, just like any other computer. Even shop around to get deals and save just as much as the PC counterparts would. You just have to have the desire to do so.

Oh, and what you call "monopolistic", I call "Quality Control."


- Blackstar

 

[SolidxSnake]

That more than anything is stopping people from getting into something different. They stick to what they know and what is familiar. Most PC modders I have met and talked to don't like feeling clueless when it comes to computers (i.e. Macs) so they stick to what they find comfortable (PC hardware and software). You have yet been in a situation where anything you had to do needed to be done on Macs or Mac only software therefore for you it's a non issue to even attempt.



You're poor Kenny, you're family is poor. The choice of Mac over PC has little or nothing to do with style. Apple just makes more a point of it in their advertising. In 16 years I have yet to meet a Mac user who choose one (or did not choose one) based on it's appearance. And yet many people (not just PC people either) copy numerous mac designs and interface options. Vista looks more and more like Mac OS X every day.

For example, the colored iMacs come out in '98, everything afterward had 5 colored plastics on them. Even George Foreman grills. The aluminum Apple Displays came out, suddenly every Dell monitor is on an Aluminum stand. The iPhone comes out, now every cell phone and blackberry maker is copying everything from the interface to the phone's design itself. I can't tell you how many 'apple dock' programs there are for XP and Vista.... Sorry dude, they must be doing something right.

<snip>

- Blackstar

I dunno, most people I know with macs, or like macs, are because they are so shiny and good looking. And honestly, when did Apple start getting so popular? I think it was with the iPod personally, I hadn't heard much about them until I one day heard something about the iPod in the news (2nd or 3rd gen by this time) and wondered what the hell "iPod" was and why there were so many things with a lower-case "i" in front of the name. Since then people seem to think macs are so much cleaner looking, smaller, and think they're so much better because of the price premium. Since then, every company has been copying them because Apple making so much money off of it.

And yes, I find it a complete non-issue to switch. I have used MacOS, and photoshop and such on it (my neighbor had a PowerMac G5 because he heard how awesome Macs were for digital art, video editing, etc). He kept it for a month or two on for a couple art pieces, then he sold it off for 1/3rd of the price he bought it (bought it aorund $3k, sold at around $1k). Again, I have no reason to switch to MacOS or any sort of Linux. Not only is my WinXP perfectly customized for my uses, it supports everything i use and runs quick enough for me. Plus... I can't stand mac mice (I know I can switch it with a normal USB mouse). The old transparent keyboards were awesome. Monitors are awesome but also pretty overpriced IMO.

But again, what is a practical reason to pick up a Mac over a well-equipped PC (or should i say Windows rig seeing as how they're kinda the same thing now...)?

 

[Captain Newbie]

When they licensed it out, was it not to Steve Jobs' founded company after he left Apple known as NeXT?

No. Two of the companies that come to mind are Power Computing and Motorola. I don't remember all of 'em, but they didn't exactly add appreciably to the Mac's marketshare.

NeXT, along with Be (also headed by a former Apple exec), was absorbed by Apple as part of their efforts to write what was to become Mac OS X, but was originally known as System 8/Copland — along with NeXT came Steve Jobs, who is either the best (or worst, or both) thing that ever happened to Apple.