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Vista NOT so "Capable" after all...

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When I say "not all the bells and whistles", I'm not counting Aero in there. Aero was marketed as THE key feature of Vista, so claiming something is Vista capable requires that it run Aero unless specifically disclaimed.

I remember DOS quite well. I remember punch cards (although it was mostly me and my sister shuffling my dad's punch cards...)

Linux and DOS differ from Windows in that the GUI runs on top of a fully functional, text based OS. Windows cannot run without its GUI. You can use different skins, but the interface is a key part of Vista.

As for exactly what should be included in the term OS, there is no universal consensus. I simply contend it doesn't matter. You can think of the software on the Vista disk as an OS or a distribution or whatever else, but the stuff in the Vista box is Vista, and a Vista capable computer needs to be able to run it.

I think MS had the right idea early on, and unfortunately caved to pressure from Intel (primarily) and OEM's (to a lesser extent) to lower standards for purely economic reasons, not technical ones.

MS could also have found a middle ground that I would have found acceptable. They could have offered a way of installing an ultra-streamlined version of Vista to OEM's that didn't include Aero, AND made it clear on the "Vista capable" sticker that the computer in question could not run Aero or other Vista components and that performance with 512MB of RAM would be sub-optimal. Even a little footnote with a reference in the sticker to read the footnote would have worked. They didn't do this, because they knew that the truth would have hurt sales. Thus, they reaped financial benefit by deceiving consumers deliberately, and so they should compensate those consumers now.
 
I covered that Linux/DOS (apply what I said about linux to DOS) thing in post #78 so there is no disagreement. I saw punch card use in Germany as a kid I got my butt kicked for messing with them you are lucky.

Here is the disclaimer it is vague:
Minimum supported requirements
Certain product features are not available with minimum supported requirements.
800 MHz processor and 512 MB of system memory
20GB hard drive with at least 15 GB of available space
Support for Super VGA graphics
CD-ROM drive

I still say that if people would read the box they would see the disclaimer however being that it is a little vague I guess there is an outside chance of something. I guess I just get sick of hearing about how PPL get messed over and wont take any personal responsibility for their own actions. My views are more philosophical than most and I say if they burn MS they need to burn them all.

EDIT: HP probably has a case I don't like it but.......
 
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I don't think that's enough. I think that you need to be more specific about what isn't supported if it involves defining features of the product. I guess we'll see what the courts say. =P

I think from the docs coming out though that it was obvious that there was *intent* to mislead.
 
Found it MRD, I am 100% in agreement with you as I have found some information you don't have too read into it is all laid out.

First definition VISTA Capable:

“Through the Windows Vista Capable program, Windows XP-based PCs that are powerful enough to run Windows Vista are now available from leading PC manufacturers worldwide, including Acer Inc., Dell Inc., Fujitsu Limited, Gateway Inc., HP, Lenovo, NEC Corp., Sony Corp., Toshiba and more. The Windows Vista Capable logo is designed to assure customers that the PCs they buy today will be ready for an upgrade to Windows Vista and can run the core experiences of Windows Vista.”

Shortly following the news of the lawsuit, the explanation of the Windows Vista Capable program appeared to have changed to this:

“A new PC running Windows XP that carries the Windows Vista Capable PC logo can run Windows Vista. All editions of Windows Vista will deliver core experiences such as innovations in organizing and finding information, security, and reliability. All Windows Vista Capable PCs will run these core experiences at a minimum. Some features available in the premium editions of Windows Vista — like the new Windows Aero user experience — may require advanced or additional hardware.”

The only one I ever saw was #2 so with this I formed my view point.

The question is did those who are in the class see the first or second IMO the need to establish a purchase cut off date?

EDIT: BTW I was looking for disclaimer #2 and stumbled upon #1 however what I said about what an os is I still stand by.
 
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The first is what I saw, because I was laptop shopping at the time and bought one for my sister then. She runs XP anyways, so it doesn't matter, but I remember researching it at the time. (The one I bought had ATI graphics, which actually could run Aero.)

I would agree with you that if the second were the information provided, then there would be no grounds for a lawsuit.
 
If any of you have been keeping up with the class action suit over the "Vista Capable" moniker, you might be interested in reading these articles.

More and more of the sealed emails are being UNsealed, and they are painting Microsoft with a very unflattering brush.

Jim Allchin, who resigned right after the release of Vista, appears as the reluctant hero who warned against caving to Intel. HP is claiming they were harmed because they made the necessary investments to beef up their computers in order to be really Vista Capable. They had some measure of exclusivity that gave them a competitive advantage. Though, through the pleadings of Intel, HP had the rug pulled out from under them at the last minute when Microsoft lowered the minimum system requirements.

Lawyers want to depose ('to question', not 'remove from the throne' of MS) CEO Steve Ballmer. Ballmer's response--[Sgt. Shultz voice] "I knew NOTHING!" [/Sgt. Shultz voice]

http://www.computerworld.com/action...eBasic&articleId=9120299&source=NLT_PM&nlid=8

http://www.computerworld.com/action...eBasic&articleId=9120478&source=NLT_AM&nlid=1

Please note that this first post I made in this thread was dated 11/17/08 and that this article:

http://weblog.infoworld.com/robertx...a_capabl.html?source=NLC-NOTES&cgd=2008-11-24

was dated 11/21/08 (and posted 11/24/08). Not only is this a amusing take on this whole situation, but the author robbed my line.

Now Ballmer may have to take the stand in his and Microsoft's own defense. That ought to be rich.

So far, Ballmer has employed the Sergeant Schultz “I know nothink” defense.
 
I haven't had time to read the entire thread, but Vista Basic does not include Aero. Vista Basic is still the Vista OS. And your computer may be able to run Vista Basic but not everything within Vista Premium, i.e. Aero.
 
toddd240 if you read post #84 it will give you what you seek I was of the same POV however I had only read disclaimer #2. After the initial lawsuit filings MS changed to this disclaimer the original disclaimer was #1 and therefore the Lemmings that can do no research or look further than the tip of their nose do have a case.

:screwy:Only in America can you get paid for being a MORON.:screwy:
 

uh, as I recall vista capable does NOT mean vista premium capable. In fact, if it says vista capable on it its usually only basic capable (in my experience). its not like they lied about anything. they said that those computers can run vista, and they can. If you really care enough to want the premium over the basic, then care enough to do a little reading on hardware requirements. Seriously, as much as I hate to say it, microsoft did nothing wrong here. It is not their fault that most consumers are stupid enough to get duped by salesman who are almost as stupid as the consumers are.
 
the problem is that when they first started Vista Capable the lemmings were led to believe that capable meant all the bells and whistles
 
uh, as I recall vista capable does NOT mean vista premium capable. In fact, if it says vista capable on it its usually only basic capable (in my experience). its not like they lied about anything. they said that those computers can run vista, and they can. If you really care enough to want the premium over the basic, then care enough to do a little reading on hardware requirements. Seriously, as much as I hate to say it, microsoft did nothing wrong here. It is not their fault that most consumers are stupid enough to get duped by salesman who are almost as stupid as the consumers are.

Your assumptions are incorrect. This--directly from the horse's (Microsoft's) mouth:

A group within Microsoft Corp. recommended in 2005 that the lowest-priced version of Windows Vista be released without the Vista name because of concerns over "user product expectations," according to documents unsealed by a federal court today.
"The recommendation of the Windows Product Management Group was that Home Basic should 'carry the Windows brand alone without the Vista generation name,'"

http://www.computerworld.com/action...articleId=9126539&taxonomyId=89&intsrc=kc_top
 
Here's the way I see it. First of all, I think the lawsuit could have been avoided.

MS failed to realize that at that time Intel (who basically holds a monopoly in the OEM business both in desktops and laptops and they have lawyers that say it is not a monopoly that AMD cannot afford) wanted to dump their 915 chipset series because it costs mere pennies to produce..

At the same time big ODM laptop mainboard producers like FoxConn, ECS, etc. fell in love with the 915 chipset as it was cheap to buy and the onboard graphics was more than good enough for business applications. So, intel and foxconn pretty much locked themselves with that chipset, specifically for low-end business style laptops and student/home laptops. This sector of the laptop industry is what sells the most and if you do it right, the profit margin can be big.

Microsoft, at the same time, knows that the low-end laptop market is where they can sell the most licenses and make the most money. However, the hardware that was available, as well as their stock configurations were not good enough to make Vista run in a way that the consumer could tell the difference and like the new OS.

They tried to come up with ways and ultimately they stuck with Vista Basic being the only OS that can run on such hardware. But they put this in the fine print, and then you have laptop manufacturers and resellers that want to sell something new and shiny and with Aero being that 'something new and shiny' they simply lied and advertised that their $400 POS laptop with 256mb RAM STOCK can run Vista w/ Aero. And when customers complained they sent them to MS to deal with it. So, then MS would tell the consumer they have to upgrade to run the shiny Vista. This of course infuriated consumers. The manufacturers got away with it because they already made their money and pointed to MS as the source of the problem.

So, basically, I think it was more of laptop manufacturer's fault than MS in duping people into buying cheap laptops and making them believe it can run the next best thing flawlessly.
 
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