Yet another new person looking for expert advice

[T=K]

Hi guys. You all seem to be a very helpful bunch, so I was hoping I could get some advice. I've built several computers, but all with air cooling, and I'd like to set my next one up with water.

So starting first with the interesting stuff (the water cooling rig)

CPU Block: Koolance CPU-370
VGA Block: Swiftech MCW82
VGA Uniblock: Swiftech GTX580-HS Heatsink
Pump: Swiftech MCP35X
Reservoir: Swiftech MCP35X Reservoir
Radiator: Swiftech MCR320-XP
Tubing: PrimoFlex Pro LRT UV Blue 1/2in. ID X 3/4in. OD

And the rest of the computer hardware:

Motherboard GIGABYTE GA-Z68X-UD4-B3
CPU: Intel Core i7-2600K
VGA: EVGA GeForce GTX 580
Memory: CORSAIR Vengeance 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 1600
PSU: COOLER MASTER Silent Pro Gold Series 1000W ATX
Hard Drive: 2X Samsung Spinpoint 1TB (Raid 1)
Hard Drive: Crucial M4 64GB SSD (for the SSD caching feature on the Z68 boards)

So after much reading, it looks like 120.3 just isn't enough radiator for a CPU and VGA loop (at least once you start overclocking), so I'm thinking I'll really need 2 if I want to cool my rig and not have it sound like a hair dryer. Also, I was eyeing the GTX360s as a radiator choice, but they are almost twice the price of the swiftech ones, and looking at Skinee's review certainly shows that they are better, but I just wonder if they are worth the extra cost.

As for cases, I haven't seen a mass market one that can fit two triple radiators, so I was thinking about one of the mountain mods U2-UFOs, in the triple horizon configuration and putting the radiators and pump/res in the bottom, with the rest of the computer up top.

If you got this far, thanks for checking this out, I appreciate any feedback you can give.

TK

 

[Daemonkin]

If you aren't wanting a hair drying then stay away from the BIX (GTX 360).

Give my guide a read http://hubpages.com/hub/Choosing-a-radiator-for-pc-watercooling

This will explain the differences in radiators and choosing which one you want. Will also tell you how to figure your heat load and a theoretical DT.

You are doing ok, though. Much better than most of the people who ask. Read a little more, you almost got it.

 

[RGE]

In skinnee's testing, at fan speed of 900-1000 rpms (near silent) swiftech rad performed about 3C better than GTX, (GTX has high fpi and needs high speed fans), at 1400 rpms they perform the same, and with loud 2800 RPMS the GTX was ahead about 1C with cooling OCed i7. Skinnees testing heat load will be similar to your gpu at idle plus your cpu OCed.

I have owned GTX, TC, XSPC, Swiftech, TFC, and only rad I didnt like was GTX, more of dust magnet with high fpi even with dust filters, and performed notably worse on lower fan speeds. Not to mention when you add the restriction of dust filters, even at 1800 to 2000 rpms, they probably perform the same (skinnee testing is without inside case resistance or filter resistance).

Between those 2, I would prefer Swiftech, but if your using jet engine fans you will get more out of GTX. And two Swiftech 120x 3 rads will easily cool everything quietly.

Only other comment I assume 64gb is enough for OS for you...

 

[T=K]

Give my guide a read http://hubpages.com/hub/Choosing-a-radiator-for-pc-watercooling

Thanks for posting that. I read it a while back, but most of it went over my head at the time. Reading it again it is now much more clear. So looking at the components, it looks like the VGA+CPU will be 500 to 600 watts total, depending how much I OC it, so lets work with the high end for now. Also, I'm assuming that since I plan to use 2 radiators I can divite the termal load in half. (Please let me know if I'm wrong here)

If I can keep the 1.5GPM flow rate that Skinee got, then my C/W is 0.0287@1kRPM and 0.0212@1400RPM. So that means a theoretical DT of 8.6 @ 1k, and 6.4 @1400.

Having a bit of difficulty calculating what the expected flow rate is, but assuming it is somewhere around 1.5 GPM I imagine I'll be in good shape. The pump is rated at 4.75, but that's at 0 pressure.

Also, I'm an engineer, so I'm all about sensors and that sort of thing, but I haven't found a whole lot of options for stuff to measure just how good your setup is performing. Any advice/recommendations there?

Also, thanks to both of you for your help so far

Edit: Off in a slightly different direction, is the extra hassle that Indigo Extreme brings with it in terms of mounting worth the extra thermal efficiency?

 

[RGE]

1.3 to 1.5 gpm would be reasonable to expect with your loop, here is skinnee test of 370 loop at 1.64 gpm with one rad, mcp 355 with res top (medium pumping power), you are just adding another rad and gpu (non full cover, not restrictive).

Unless you plan on folding with both cpu/gpu at same time or running furmark and prime at same time, you will never cool anywhere close to the full OCed TDP of both devices. OCed 2600K even at 5 ghz and OCed 580, more like about 300W max while gaming, 150W while running prime or folding cpu only with gpu idle.

On mine, running prime, delta air to water was 4.8C with 2x360 rads with fans 1700 rpms, OCed i7 at 180W (2600K more efficient than my i950) and 2 Oced gpus (one 295) which are idle running prime. And about 6-7C max during gaming. Running prime + furmark was 11C.

Regarding tim, PK1 or shin itsu 7783 will get you within 1C of indigo on your 2600K Oced with a good mount, without the hassle and expense.

One other note on c/w skinnees numbers assume no air filters (decrease performance about 10% metal ones, more for others), and assumes external rad, internal will lose another 10-20% efficiency at given fan rpm from air resistance pushing air in or pulling air out of rad.

 

[T=K]

Thanks rge. I looked at swiftech's site, and their performance curves show that the 35X puts out about twice as much water as the 355 until the flow is too restricted, so that makes me feel better ( http://www.swiftech.com/mcp35x12vdcpump.aspx#tab2 )

Thanks for the tip on TIM, I think I'll go with the shin etsu 7783, since since it doesn't appear that the PK1 is still available for sale.

Stepping back from water cooling a bit, I decided I'm going to switch out the WD velociraptors for just to 1TB spinpoints. I read this (Edit: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4337/z68-ssd-caching-with-corsairs-f40-sandforce-ssd/3 )article, and it looks like the 1TB drives with an SSD cache wallops the velociraptor by itself, and isn't that far behind the velociraptor with SSD cache. Since this saves me about $300, I think I'm happy with this small sacrifice.

Back on to the watercooling topic. I've found several items that claim to be flow rate sensors and other items that claim to be water temp sensors. They all have to plug into something else though. Is there some sort of industry standard where I can, for example, buy a koolance water temp sensor (http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?product_id=1160 ) and plug it into a fan controller such as this one? http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...roduct_info&cPath=52_87_137&products_id=27886
Or is there a thread somewhere I'm missing that has some best practices and recommendations for water cooling sensors?

Thanks again
TK

 

[RGE]

no industry standard for temp sensors. You would have to buy a koolance controller to go with that temp sensor like here, though it is expensive and I dont know anything about those, quality or accuracy wise. You might find a flow sensor that you can plug into fan header and convert rpms to flow...though you could probably approximate flow as accurately as that.

Only sensors I have played with is ones I have, several dallas 1 wires (accurate to 0.1C) and crystalfonz, again $150 for all. And the software is buggy on windows 7, only good for testing not for monitoring.

Bottom line, you would have to find a temp sensor that comes with a controller.

 

[Conumdrum]

Koolance, Aquero, umm a few others seem to be popular.

Temp/flow sensors don't help cooling, I know you know that. They can be used to see how good your system is. With folks that do testing as a hobby, and use the PC as an eternal tinkering workshop, they can be fun.

In normal use they don't do squat. The temps of the CPU/GPU is all you need to know that the loop is working. Most of us set the bios up to shut down whe temps get to xx values on the CPU. If the water flow stops, the CPU heats up fast and the PC shuts down.

Flow rate is important, we don't see many with flow problems because we guide folks to properly sized loops. Your loop would be perfectly fine, so no worries there.

My suggestion is build the loop with properly sized rads and you'll have nothing to worry about. Then you can decide if you want to add sensors and the associated costs.

Ohh on a side note, you'll like the 35x. You'll want to PWM control it from the CPU fan header. It can be heard in a quiet system at 100%. I run mine at 55ish% at idle temps, and up to 85% at load temps. Look at my sig.

And yes, two rads in the math, you can double the heatload or halve the DT temps. Two 120x3 rads would be more than enough, and unless you have incredible high ambients or go for volt modding GPUs etc, you'd be fine with another 580. Your CPU temps would go up, but the 2600k don't mind working temps in the high 60's low 70's.

 

[T=K]

Thanks again for the input. The engineer in me really wants to poke the tubes to figure out how hot and fast they are, but I thank you guys for being the voice of reason. I'll let the internal sensors be my guide.

So on to more nitty gritty details, I'm leaning towards the following setup for my case (U2UFO, black mirror finish):
Front panel:
Duality (Has 2 sets of 3 5.25 bays at the top, a row of 3x 120mm fans in the middle and another 3x row at the bottom). I plan to put a radiator on each of the two rows, with fans and filters in front of them (my room gets pretty dusty since it's carpeted). For fans, it looks like Yate Loon is the way to go, so I'll get the Medium speed with blue ones, and black aluminum filters. The plan is to mount the fans as intake, and pushing through the radiators. (That make the most sense?)
One of the 5.25 bays will be for the fan controller and optical drives. The other will hold a hard drive rack.

Back panel: Triple standard with Horizon brace (PSU and mobo on the top half with a 120mm fan above the mobo, row of 3x 120mm fans on the bottom). I'll mount yate loon fans in all the holes as exhaust fans, but this time just with a fan grill instead of a filter.

Side panels: acrylic sheet. If I'm going to spend this much on a computer, I'm going to show it off.

Top panel: Also an acrylic sheet, although I'm thinking I may need to put 2 120mm blow holes above the motherboard into the panel to provide some extra air flow on the top portion of the case. Thoughts?

As always, thanks for helping me plan out my build. I have some vacation time in early September, and I would like to have everything ordered by then so I can get to building. (But again, being an engineer I like to over think things. Feel free to tell me I'm being ridiculous)

 

[Conumdrum]

Since money isn't a big worry, why not go with better rads? Not saying the MCR ones are bad, but there is better. Even less noise for better cooling.

Can you get Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1450/1850 RPM anywhere yet? They are the king of quiet 'n good rad fans. I hear a big a shipment is going to hit the USA WC stores pretty soon.

Nothing wrong with the Yate mediums tho. The blue ones might not be as good as the black ones.

It's your first WC rig, many overthink, some underthink. Better to overthink.

 

[T=K]

Since money isn't a big worry, why not go with better rads? Not saying the MCR ones are bad, but there is better. Even less noise for better cooling.

Anything particular come to mind? I looked at the ones that Skinee compared, but all of the ones that beat the swiftech did so by not very much, and cost almost twice as much.

Can you get Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1450/1850 RPM anywhere yet? They are the king of quiet 'n good rad fans. I hear a big a shipment is going to hit the USA WC stores pretty soon.

Everywhere I saw was not available/backordered. And it looks like these fans will cost almost 4 times what the YL ones will cost, so since I'll need 10-12 fans total, I'd have to see some pretty solid data to back up the cost difference here.

I have a budget higher than I would for an air cooling rig, but I do still have a budget.

My apologies if I'm missing something obvious. I don't want to sound ungrateful, just making sure I understand why I am spending more money before I do so. Thanks for your help.
TK

 

[Conumdrum]

Yea, you get little more performance for lots more money.

If silent is your main concern then More Raddage and Fannage. You have plenty and of good enough quality to be nice n' quiet. It's too bad the GT's got so expensive. My first 6 were $13 each I think, I ran Yate mediums before that (black ones). Was plenty happy with the Yates at 1000 RPM or so. The GTs are quiet and what noise they make is more 'tonal pleasing'.

You don't need to spend a dime more than what you plan to, I'm just giving you options if you didn't know. It's all good dude.

A dime more.... LOL. You need 3 90 degree Bitspower fittings? Better order one extra. Same with fans. Clamps, etc etc. Once you start watercooling, you'll have extras and the next build or your new WC media center PC won't cost as much.

Or when you WC the coffee pot... Hehe, it gets addicting. I got enough for another 2 WC PC now except rads. I'd have to buy more PC stuff, and I'm happy with just 2 in the house, and the wife doesn't need WC. I really should sell most of it, but it's my 'precious'......

 

[RGE]

The alum. fan filters you picked out are same ones I have, and are about the best at stopping dust while only decreasing air flow 10%. Some other filters decrease air flow by 30%.

I have the same blue med speed LED yates in my build here. They perform only 0.7C worse than GT fans (delta air to water) on mine and I like the look of them. Sound wise, GT's do have a lower tone at full blast like Conundrum said and at full blast they make little less noise than yates, but frankly at that speed they are all too noisy, the only negative I would say about GT's (in addition to recent prices) is I can still hear that lower tone at 1000 rpms, , so currently not using mine, but will undoubtedly play with them again sometime. At 1000 rpms which is fan speed I use, except when stress testing, yates are quiet.

And definitely do airflow as you plan, intake cool air from front through rad, and exhaust in rear. If your doing horizontal mobo, then may want intake some through top as well.

 

[fall]

I have to agree with RGE on the yates.

Medium yates are still kinda loud on my RX360's but at 1200 rpm they are whisper silent... Yate Lows maybe how you wanna go.

BTW RGE you forgot to hook up the mobo

 

[RGE]

I hid my wires well this time, should have seen my previous build wires everywhere.

 

[T=K]

Thanks for the input. I think I'll stick with the swiftech rads, I'd rather have a bit of budget left over for making the computer look pretty. If the Yate mediums can be pretty silent with a fan controller I think I'll keep the mediums so I can always turn them up a bit if I need the extra power for something and don't mind the noise.

So onto the loop setup. The pump will go in the bottom of the case, facing the rads. So that will give me a loop of
Pump -> Rad -> Rad -> CPU -> VGA -> Res + Pump

That make sense?

Also, I really like how those fittings look in your case RGE, are they the Bitspower black sparkle ones? I think I'll be fine with the regular fittings for Res+Pump, CPU, and 2 of the radiator ports. I'll probably need the 90 degree ones to link the 2 Rads together, and to come out of the VGA block. So that is 6 regular fittings, and 4 90 degree fittings (plus extras in case I break some)

I also found that there are silver plated versions of the bitspower fittings. Would a pair of these on one of my parts help to keep baddies from growing in my loop?

And also, is it worth looking into a connector like this one to connect my rads together? Does anyone know the spacing between the fan rows on the UFO duality front panel?

Thanks again for all your help, I feel like I've almost got everything planned.
TK

 

[RGE]

Many including myself buy med fans and fan controller for same reason, and Lamptron controller you linked is a good one.

As long as res is in front of pump for bleeding, any order is fine.

My fittings are Bitspower. Some people use 90's and ok with them, but some have had problems with seals going bad over time and leaking from 90's where they rotate especially if under any tension, just a warning. I got rid of my 90's on my last build for that reason, but others use them without issue...another one of those personal preference things.

Regarding silver fittings, if your planning on using silver then yes, they will help. If your planning on using another biocide like PT nuke/PHN then not necessary, but doesnt hurt on other hand.

yeah, dont know if that connector would fit or not...might look neat if it did and obviate need 90 there, but would be luck if that one size happened to fit the spacing.

 

[Conumdrum]

Won't work.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums...Koolance-Problem-Leaking-180-Degree-Connector

I been using 90's for a long time, works great. Read of issues. Don't gorilla them.

 

[T=K]

Won't work.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll just stick with the 90s. I think that nails down everything in the case that will be functional. One small note for those following is I changed to a different mobo. Didn't need the video out on the mobo itself since I'll have discrete graphics, the extra ports will be more useful. Now just to think about parts for the wow factor.

For the case, if you order a CYO case from mountain mods does that count as a custom job that has a 6-8 week lead time? Wondering if I should order it from it now or wait until I'm closer to build time.

TK

 

[Daemonkin]

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll just stick with the 90s. I think that nails down everything in the case that will be functional. One small note for those following is I changed to a different mobo. Didn't need the video out on the mobo itself since I'll have discrete graphics, the extra ports will be more useful. Now just to think about parts for the wow factor.

For the case, if you order a CYO case from mountain mods does that count as a custom job that has a 6-8 week lead time? Wondering if I should order it from it now or wait until I'm closer to build time.

TK

Took a month to get my CYO case, but this is because my powder coat color was on back order. If nothing is on back order you should have it in about 2 weeks.

Powder coating is $150 if done by them so you may not want to go that route and just choose one of the basic blacks or aluminum (aluminium for you guys across the pond) cases.