Windows 8

[Archer0915]

I think Linux is good enough for general usage. If it were bundled pre-installed by computer sellers who knew what hardware it was going to running and got everything set up and ready the same way Windows usually is, it would benefit. As it is, it's still a little fiddly for people to set up and get running. But most people use their PCs for Office, Email and Browsing. Linux+KDE is fine for that and has the necessary software. As more of the application space moves online, software support becomes less and less of an issue.

I'm not sure about you saying I don't see the bigger issue. I know quite a bit about the technical side of all this. And I'd say that even personally, I don't know enough to do a better job of, to use your example, of how Windows manages its memory. One of the big things in a modern OS is protected memory and memory permissions. Basically, means to (a) stop badly written code, e.g. buffer overruns, from interfering with other applications or crashing the OS because its limited to its own area of memory, and (b) to prevent security issues from malicious or compromised software. E.g. particular areas of memory are marked as containing executable code or not containing such. If it's non-executable, then even though a program might sneak malicious code into the memory, it can't direct the OS to run that code because it's in a non-executable area. That's just an example of some of the underlying design issues of memory allocation as you referred to it. I don't know enough about how to tell Windows to allocate its memory better than it does. And I'm pretty sure the vast majority of MS's customers do not.

Anyway, I think I'm done here. I have no wish to push this to the point of argument. I'm happy for us to agree to differ. I think you'll agree that your tastes, needs and technical background are very different to the vast majority of normal users. I just did a `ps -ef | wc -l` on my Debian server and it listed about 109 processes. Admittedly it's running Postgres and Apache, but it has no GUI on it, so unless someone feels that a Debian server (or indeed Win7 which is similar) is bloated, I think Win8 cannot be either. If a Debian server with no GUI is considered bloated, then there's no hope for any of us! I can slim things down on it a bit more with Gentoo or Slackware, but that's more effort too. Debian has long been my benchmark for the efficiency vs. effort compromise. Thanks for an interesting discussion.

H.

Well I think a big part of it is the type of thinker you are. Visual thinkers are great at many tasks and there are more of them out there. I am not a predominantly visual thinker.

I prefer Strategy games over action games.

I prefer a command line for auto-cad where I never have to touch the mouse and just enter planar coordinateds where I can. I do not like drag dimensioning.

Others prefer to have everything handed to them by the OS or software and not think about it. This is not bad because it frees their minds up to focus other tasks at work such as facebook, their android or personal emails jk.

In reality though the over complication (as some of us see it) may increase general productivity by approaching how people think. By doing this more people will be more comfortable with computer related work.

I prefer C over VB.

Now all this means is I prefer things that are direct and not fluffy. Hell my truck is 14yo and has never been washed. It functions very well though. I am an under the hood type of guy.

Now with that being said as much as I hate to admit it we need the improved squishy interfaces because the majority think this way. Not because they necessarily were born that way but because they were programmed that way.

 

[Frakk]

Raw power and real control.

Way back when you could change how DOS accessed memory. Changing the addressing scheme was a big thing.

I really feel trying to make things easier is part of the issue here. Most people can not grasp what is actually going on inside the box. Now you may not see it as anything to worry about but I see a bigger picture and that picture is an issue.

I think Linux is a much better OS but it just lacks the software support.

To the general population its all about ease and convenience, that's exactly what Windows is.
It will do everything they could ever need it to, flawlessly without hassle, It just works.

You say Linux is a much better OS, i can see why you say that and to a certain extent i agree with you, i like using it.

But, it is through with problems, from a technical standpoint it goes horribly wrong at regular intervals, from fresh it just seems to start slowly pulling itself apart over time until eventually the whole thing becomes so unstable it collapses completely.

Nothing you plug into it ever seems to work quite right, just to give you an example i use a Huawei mobile Broadband modem while out and about, that's a pretty common modem and Linux has had built in support for it for years, which at first seems great, its one of not so many things that are (plug in and go) yet despite those years of support for it it is unstable.
no matter how strong my signal i can do little more than brows the net with it, if i need to download a 50meg file, forget it... it will get so far and then just sit there doing nothing for half an hour or even and hour before it tells you some went wrong, Again!
you can see whats happening sometimes when browsing the net, something craps out at regular intervals with it, you can be in the middle loading a page and then it will just put an error page up instead "whoops... i drooped the ball, again! Lost port or packet or some bloody thing" i hit F5 and its fine again.

I plug the same modem into Windows and it works perfectly every time, all day every day...

Add to that, lets say i have a job i need to do, i need a program to do the job, i look and find what i need, the info on the home page says this is a great progy and so on.
So i download it, or try to install it though the software center.
It will not install, or it installed and now it just sits there refusing to do anything with no info as to why.
So i spend half an hour looking for an answer which more often then not ends up being,- you need this, that and all of these programs in conjunction and then you need to type these 327 lines of text into terminal, after that you need to go into this and that system folder and do the following to this that and another system file..... and then its still not working.

That is not something people are going to use, for all its flaws, Windows is convenient, easy and it works.

The problem i think is for something to work as well as windows, it has to become Windows.

 

[Archer0915]

To the general population its all about ease and convenience, that's exactly what Windows is.
It will do everything they could ever need it to, flawlessly without hassle, It just works.

You say Linux is a much better OS, i can see why you say that and to a certain extent i agree with you, i like using it.

But, it is through with problems, from a technical standpoint it goes horribly wrong at regular intervals, from fresh it just seems to start slowly pulling itself apart over time until eventually the whole thing becomes so unstable it collapses completely.

Nothing you plug into it ever seems to work quite right, just to give you an example i use a Huawei mobile Broadband modem while out and about, that's a pretty common modem and Linux has had built in support for it for years, which at first seems great, its one of not so many things that are (plug in and go) yet despite those years of support for it it is unstable.
no matter how strong my signal i can do little more than brows the net with it, if i need to download a 50meg file, forget it... it will get so far and then just sit there doing nothing for half an hour or even and hour before it tells you some went wrong, Again!
you can see whats happening sometimes when browsing the net, something craps out at regular intervals with it, you can be in the middle loading a page and then it will just put an error page up instead "whoops... i drooped the ball, again! Lost port or packet or some bloody thing" i hit F5 and its fine again.

I plug the same modem into Windows and it works perfectly every time, all day every day...

Add to that, lets say i have a job i need to do, i need a program to do the job, i look and find what i need, the info on the home page says this is a great progy and so on.
So i download it, or try to install it though the software center.
It will not install, or it installed and now it just sits there refusing to do anything with no info as to why.
So i spend half an hour looking for an answer which more often then not ends up being,- you need this, that and all of these programs in conjunction and then you need to type these 327 lines of text into terminal, after that you need to go into this and that system folder and do the following to this that and another system file..... and then its still not working.

That is not something people are going to use, for all its flaws, Windows is convenient, easy and it works.

The problem i think is for something to work as well as windows, it has to become Windows.

Yeah many things are slow with linux like installs. I messed with it way back when and on my PS3. I was most impressed with the simplicity of it and most pushed away by the lack of software. I also never had any stability issues or bugs or anything. Hell my websites are hosted on linux based servers.

 

[Frakk]

Yeah many things are slow with linux like installs. I messed with it way back when and on my PS3. I was most impressed with the simplicity of it and most pushed away by the lack of software. I also never had any stability issues or bugs or anything. Hell my websites are hosted on linux based servers.

Linux based servers, well now that is an entirely different matter, i use servers a lot in my work and i refuse to use anything but Linux servers.

They are the bees knees, the crown jewels... call it what you will, its the best server OS there is, full stop.

I just wished they would get Ubuntu or Kubuntu more together. i want to use it instead of Windows, but the reality is i can't, it does not work as i need it to, yet.

 

[Archer0915]

Linux based servers, well now that is an entirely different matter, i use servers a lot in my work and i refuse to use anything but Linux servers.

They are the bees knees, the crown jewels... call it what you will, its the best server OS there is, full stop.

I just wished they would get Ubuntu or Kubuntu more together. i want to use it instead of Windows, but the reality is i can't, it does not work as i need it to, yet.

What has red hat done as of late?

Personally I think IBM needs to work up a distro.

 

[Frakk]

What has red hat done as of late?

Personally I think IBM needs to work up a distro.

You will know more than i do, i work as part of a group i a variety of things, i'm not the software guru or coder, i'm not much good at it.

My field is in hardware (when its called for) and mainly i head up the user / customer side, as in support and contact organisation, and i create the web sites ect... but again i don't do much manual HTML / PHP coding unless i'm creating basic front pages or modifying CMS engines such as WordPress and various bulletin formats.

We have a very talented 'real' coder, he is a software coder and thats what he does, mainly C sharp but can put in mind to anything... i gladly leave all to complicated stuff to him, he keeps up with what such providers are doing. i'm not that interested there if you catch my drift

 

[Archer0915]

You will know more than i do, i work as part of a group i a variety of things, i'm not the software guru or coder, i'm not much good at it.

My field is in hardware (when its called for) and mainly i head up the user / customer side, as in support and contact organisation, and i create the web sites ect... but again i don't do much manual HTML / PHP coding unless i'm creating basic front pages or modifying CMS engines such as WordPress and various bulletin formats.

We have a very talented 'real' coder, he is a software coder and thats what he does, mainly C sharp but can put in mind to anything... i gladly leave all to complicated stuff to him, he keeps up with what such providers are doing. i'm not that interested there if you catch my drift

Yeah I catch you.

 

[EpicMango]

Well. The rig in my signature for some reason cannot run Windows 8. Installer said I couldn't
Hmph.

 

[Automata]

Can we get this back on topic guys? This is not a Linux discussion, it is about Windows 8. You are free to create a new thread, however.

 

[Archer0915]

Thid I really think it is relevant to the discussion. Windows has lost many users because of their (as Neuro put it) effort to make my life simpler. "The last thing I need are more things to to do to make my life simpler".

Face it if we want to run the latest software we will be forced to upgrade to 8 or 9. Well a discussion about the relevant alternatives is legit. Yeah win 7 could be used but that is not 8 either. So we need to form a baseline and getting to what we do not like about 8 or more so what we like better about other OS choices is very relevant to the statements in the OP.

 

[Automata]

I agree your posts were on topic as you were comparing it to Windows 8. I wasn't referring to you.

It started straying at post 142.

 

[Archer0915]

I agree your posts were on topic as you were comparing it to Windows 8. I wasn't referring to you.

It started straying at post 142.

Gotcha. Keep it to compare and contrast.

 

[Frakk]

I agree your posts were on topic as you were comparing it to Windows 8. I wasn't referring to you.

It started straying at post 142.

The post started straying off Win 8 on page 2 already.

If a subject comes up, inevitably other decisions will take place around that subject. to expect people to stick to a ridged realm with in the narrow confines of only the one aspect of the subject is completely ridiculous and frankly it never happens, nor should it.

a conversation starts and then branches out into a broader sense, that's reality. It happens every day in a million conversations every second of every day, don't you have conversations? there is nothing stopping anyone from adding a new aspect to Windows 8 in this thread, and there is nothing wrong with talking about related subjects.

You said you were not referring to Archer0915 in complaining about going off topic, you say it started at post 142, well Archer0915 was responding to post 142 which was about Window vs another OS!

 

[polacos]

I have Win 8 on my laptop as my main OS, as I dont use it often, the UI is cool, but i think it will work better on a touchscreen, as the unlock swipe, it is like android with the store, settings look.

 

[Xtreme Barton]

so if i dual boot this and decide to wipe it out later is it gonna trash my win7 boot ?

not only that i have a ton of options to choose from ... not sure ..google here is come

.

 

[djscrew]

vmware it imho

 

[mjw21a]

Meh, I'm still a strong believer in the KISS principal. Keep It Simple Stupid!

Linux still has a ways to go in making things just work out of the box. Once they get to that point then they're on to a winner. I still honestly believe that the underlying OS in Linux is superior to Windows, they just have to simplify the GUI to a point where any noob can use it, and install apps on its (install CD, not through the app manager) no worries at all.

Likewise, WINE needs to be improved. Lets face it, MS Office is the standard. Likewise, you need basic apps like commercial accounting packages to work on it. Where natively it using WINE is irrelevant. Once Linux conquers the consumer, it'll make its way into the corporate desktop. Consumers drive tech takeup, not the corporates. Just look at the iPhone, and how many businesses were forced to go down this path despite IT departments preferring either Windows Mobile or Blackberries.

 

[djscrew]

Once Linux conquers the consumer, it'll make its way into the corporate desktop.

Never gonna happen.

IT departments are looking to go virtual more and more these days, licenses for windows are cheaper when distributed from a server (for multiple reasons), and boxes are cheaper when all you need is a NIC, USB ports, and a screen. Servers can distribute load more efficiently, and I have seen pings of 1-2 ms to servers across town here.

If anything, Chromebooks are much more attractive to corporations then a Linux box ever will be. A Chromebook's data storage is already almost totally virtual and can be encrypted, Chromebooks are cheap, and employees can easily take their work home. The processing power of a chrome book is enough to handle probably 90% of normal computing tasks these days such as call center or data entry positions.

For the other 10% of advanced graphics, sound, and design programs - Mac and Windows will continue to dominate. The barrier to entry is just too high for Linux to ever get a foothold in that market, and there would be no point for them to either.

 

[djscrew]

Well. The rig in my signature for some reason cannot run Windows 8. Installer said I couldn't
Hmph.

Did it say you're missing drivers? If so, it's likely a bug from not DLing the file correctly/completely. I downloaded 2 of the 3.3 gigs. The installer would boot in VMware but then say that I was missing drivers. A quick 'goog' of the problem solved it by downloading the file again, worked like a charm.

 

[EpicMango]

Did it say you're missing drivers? If so, it's likely a bug from not DLing the file correctly/completely. I downloaded 2 of the 3.3 gigs. The installer would boot in VMware but then say that I was missing drivers. A quick 'goog' of the problem solved it by downloading the file again, worked like a charm.

I don't care anymore, because I am now running on thee new rig in my signature

Gonna be booting Windows 8 on Monday, as I wait for PinGuyOS to update to 12.04!

Lets see what all the hubbub is about!