FEATURED AMD ZEN Discussion (Previous Rumor Thread)

[EarthDog]

Through my exploit E_D the faster the ram the better the performance. Now that being said it isn't going to make that much difference unless AMD double the HP in one of those APU and makes it truly viable for gaming.
I have wondered myself what kind of boost 3600 migh give over 2600.
As for speed right now all I have seen is the "official" rating of DDR4 2400 now that doesn't mean it can't runn fastr. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the i7 6700K "officially" supports 2133?

Correct, 2133 is the JEDEC standard for the platform. We've seen that over 4000 as you of course know.

AMD doesn't have a history of overclocking memory high comparitively, so only time will tell I suppose.


As far as budget gaming, the difference between ddr4 3000 and 4000 is over double. Ddr4 3k kits likely won't hit 4k. I'd think $100 goes a long way towards a budget discrete gpu which walks the igpu. Something to considering when thinking about that on the igpu.

 

[Woomack]

@OC4FUN/OC4LIFE
Couple of years ago overclocking was a way to play games without spending money on new hardware but it has changed and it's just an "useless addition" in most cases but still one of the key signs on the product package ( especially graphics cards ). Now if you have any quad core then you can play about all games. Overclocking is not really helping past ~4GHz on Intel ( I mean difference between playable and constant lags ). On AMD is helping everything but buying even the highest series is not guaranteeing that games will work fine.
Problem here is that couple of years ago you could buy lower series CPU and overclock it. We all remember Socket A 1700+, A64 3000/3200+ ( about $100 as I remember local prices ) and some other series which were the most popular in gaming computers. Now you simply can't do that or it's not helping as much as you wish and you are forced to buy higher series if you don't want to have problems. If you save money then you actually lose in not so far future and you stuck without option to improve other than replace part of the PC.
If you look at AMD it's like everything except quad Athlon and 6 thread+ FX is useless for games. Even higher FX are often bad option as they have performance like locked i3 in many games. On the other hand if you pick Intel then i3 is already not enough for many games and you have to buy i5. What more, best if it's unlocked i5 and this is already expensive for most gamers. To overclock locked Intels you need "special" BIOS on which some features are not working.
In graphics cards it's much worse as playable graphics price went from ~$100 to ~$250 in last maybe 10 years. If you want to play without issues even at 1080p then you need something like GTX960. It will disappear from the stores soon and next will be RX470/RX480/GTX1060. There is really big difference between these cards and one step lower.

@Johan
Even just after DDR4 release there were higher standards in JEDEC. 2133 is only one standard but 2nd Crucial kit which I was reviewing was based on 2400 IC.
There are only 2 IC which are in mass sales at more than ~3333. It's Samsung in single rank 4GB and 8GB modules. Both are based on chips designed to work at 2133.
I wonder more what performance of IMC will Zen have. Regardless if it's 3000 or 4000 if memory controller will be bad then memory speed won't change anything. In FX memory controller was simply slow and anything above ~1866 wasn't helping in performance even though you could bench up to 2800.
If AMD release dual channel controller with read/write/copy bandwidth at about 35GB/s at 2133 and ~40ns or less latency then will be not bad.

 

[FlyingTexan]

What do you mean by 'HP, Johan? If you mean Shader Cores, then I agree, (otherwise I simply don't understand lol).

@Earthdog, when gaming on a budget, tight budget, every tiny bit of performance you can eek out of a system makes what was spent, that much more worth it.

I see so many people with expensive systems, overclocking them even further, whereas for me, overclocking was out of necessity - because I simply couldn't afford any better.
Where does it end? When the middle class becomes upper, but the the lower class will become middle, and new lower class will be created - thus the cycle continues & so does the demande for cheap systems to make gaming (albeit barely passable) a reality, for the less cash-rich people out there.

Thanks for replies.

quick Q: is APU the same thing as integrated graphics just renamed? Does an APU offer more than say Intel HD on chip graphics?

 

[wagex]

@OC4FUN/OC4LIFE
Couple of years ago overclocking was a way to play games without spending money on new hardware but it has changed and it's just an "useless addition" in most cases but still one of the key signs on the product package ( especially graphics cards ). Now if you have any quad core then you can play about all games. Overclocking is not really helping past ~4GHz on Intel ( I mean difference between playable and constant lags ). On AMD is helping everything but buying even the highest series is not guaranteeing that games will work fine.
Problem here is that couple of years ago you could buy lower series CPU and overclock it. We all remember Socket A 1700+, A64 3000/3200+ ( about $100 as I remember local prices ) and some other series which were the most popular in gaming computers. Now you simply can't do that or it's not helping as much as you wish and you are forced to buy higher series if you don't want to have problems. If you save money then you actually lose in not so far future and you stuck without option to improve other than replace part of the PC.
If you look at AMD it's like everything except quad Athlon and 6 thread+ FX is useless for games. Even higher FX are often bad option as they have performance like locked i3 in many games. On the other hand if you pick Intel then i3 is already not enough for many games and you have to buy i5. What more, best if it's unlocked i5 and this is already expensive for most gamers. To overclock locked Intels you need "special" BIOS on which some features are not working.
In graphics cards it's much worse as playable graphics price went from ~$100 to ~$250 in last maybe 10 years. If you want to play without issues even at 1080p then you need something like GTX960. It will disappear from the stores soon and next will be RX470/RX480/GTX1060. There is really big difference between these cards and one step lower.

what cards only cost $100 10 years ago that were "playable" on new games?
and i dont think cpu's were that cheap either?

 

[Johan45]

What do you mean by 'HP, Johan? If you mean Shader Cores, then I agree, (otherwise I simply don't understand lol).

HP HorsePower, I just meant stronger igpu cores at least double what they are now.
@ Woomack
I totally agre. We need vast improvement in memory throughput to make it worthwhile. FX couldn't max DDR3. I surely hope Zen is different. It has to be to competetive

 

[rescuetoaster]

Texan - Yes, an APU is AMD's CPU+graphics on one chip solution. Generally and historically any APU will dominate intel HD on the graphics side of things. On the CPU side, well that's an entirely different story.

 

[deathman20]

what cards only cost $100 10 years ago that were "playable" on new games?
and i dont think cpu's were that cheap either?

AMDs from what I recall for a nice playing chip was in the $100-150 range back in the hayday (early 2000's).

Now GPU wise, yeah I wouldn't say $100 but more $200 range for good playable back then. In the last at least 6 years from what I've purchased its moved up to the $200-300 range.

 

[EarthDog]

quick Q: is APU the same thing as integrated graphics just renamed? Does an APU offer more than say Intel HD on chip graphics?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Accelerated_Processing_Unit

The AMD Accelerated Processing Unit (APU), formerly known as Fusion, is the marketing term for a series of 64-bit microprocessors from AMD designed to act as a CPU and graphics accelerator (GPU) on a single chip.

AMD announced the first generation APUs, Llano for high-performance and Brazos for low-power devices in January 2011. The second-generation Trinity for high-performance and Brazos-2 for low-power devices were announced in June 2012. The third-generation Kaveri for high performance devices was launched in January 2014, while Kabini and Temash for low-power devices were announced in summer 2013.

The Sony PlayStation 4 and Microsoft Xbox One eighth generation video game consoles both use semi-custom third-generation low-power APUs.

Although it does not use the name "APU", Intel Corporation's CPUs with integrated HD Graphics are architecturally very similar.

 

[Woomack]

Cards like 8600 GT cost ~$130 after release so maybe a bit more than 100 but it was already good for games. Later in similar price was something like GTS250 but GTX460 cost $200, GTX560 cost already $250 ... later GTX660 cost about the same as GTX560 but it was a bit slow and better option was 660Ti at about $300. We supposed to get faster cards in this price but nvidia changed their card description and released weaker chips in higher price ( and was proud of sales later ). GTX760 cost less than 660Ti. At least I saw it like that each new generation and what my friends were considering minimum for gaming that days.
About 9 years ago HD4870 was top AMD card and release price was $300 ( later replaced by 4890 ). Now there are 2-3 shelves of single GPU cards above that. I just mean that to reach the same "level of fun" we have to pay more each generation and gaming graphics and processors are starting to be way too expensive. When someone asked me to make gaming PC specs couple of years ago then I could make it much cheaper than now. Now some components are called gaming but except flashy sticker on the box is hard to use them for gaming ... like all these new graphics cards below $200.
With CPUs it was a bit earlier, 2005 or something near. A64 3000+ cost about $200 but price went down by 30% in couple of months. Some time later Core 2 Duo started to be expensive but then all games were working great on dual core.
There are also higher motherboard prices which are not always based on the quality and additional features.
Maybe it's my point of view but nowadays I see it's hard to build cheap PC for gaming while 10-12 years ago it was possible.

 

[ATMINSIDE]

The 8600GT was $150-$160 MSRP in 2007.
That's the equivalent of ~$175-185 today.

 

[Woomack]

I took a quick look in the web so it could be $150 msrp but it's something like GTX960 which was $200 msrp in the lowest version. GTX1060 which is replacing GTX960 is already $250 and FE $300.

I don't know if you noticed but everything is controlled by manufacturers so max clocks, voltages etc. If you try to make anything above what they call safe then you lose warranty or it's simply locked and you can't make anything with that. Most OC results are the same or +/- 10% on the same hardware. It's nothing special anymore that you overclocked GPU or CPU as all others make exactly the same and almost all hit a wall set by manufacturers. In the past you could OC everything. Now only selected series ( which for sure have calculated RMA costs in its price ). Nvidia and AMD have support agreements with partners and all have to stick to that or they lose warranty on GPUs. That's why almost all Nvidia and AMD cards from the same series have the same voltage/power limits and OCP/OVP limits.

and I pushed quite long off topic ... maybe back to Zen rumours

 

[OC4FUN/OC4LIFE]

@Woomack

I still remember the 3DFX Voodoo cards! Man were they fun! Maybe the reason for increased costs on GPUs over the years is due to less competition in general.
AMD VS Nvidia, anywhere Nvidia can outperform AMD, they can charge what they want because they're alone in that market segment.

I also had an overclocked GTX460 with i7 CPU back about 6-7 years from now, total cost of system was 1000 pounds GBP, and when i considered buying Intel in early 2016, the cost of a full desktop system on the cheap from AMD was as much as a high en i5/i7 CPU on it's own (OK, maybe with a motherboard), but then still having to buy a dedicated card, and it started to add up, so I went for AMD (for once, recent AMD convert ).
So I agree with you on the thought of, building a cheap gaming PC back in the early 2000s seemed feasible/easier, a lot has changed since then, and I feel this is where AMD is trying to step in with their CPU/iGPU combo.
Time will tell if it will work.
IMO I am willing to continue with AMD as more of a (how far can I push you? how much 'bang' can I get for my 'buck'?), rather than return to Intel and be like (you'd better not give me any less that what I've paid for!) with anything higher than what you've stated being useless, an excellent point in your thread time-stamped 3:15pm

@Johan

Cheers for the acronym definition - HorsePower or 'Umpf' as I like to call it - stronger iGPU cores, definitely!
This is where I personally am getting excited for Zen, their SMT (Simultaneous MultiThreading) architecture looks promising.
And yes, Intel has had that for a while, but AMD has more cores so the 'potential' gets me curious.


@all

(FYI - being very new to this forum, you guys are awesome, I came from [TomsH] and this site/forum is on another level! When you have pretty much everybody I know including my family who just nod their heads but you know they haven't got a clue as to what you're saying.. nice to know there are other Oc'ers out there that share a similar passion)
On a funny note, I started talking to a colleague about PC Gaming, Overclocking to improve performance & the very first thing he said was "I didn't know people still play games on PCs"...the conversation ended with a link to Steam Stats and a "where have you been?" look, haha!

 

[Woomack]

If you like overclocking and keep benching from time to time then we have a benching team -> more info about how to join is here. Generally we are overclocking everything but mainly for hwbot rankings. Can also take a part in Overclocktagon.

 

[petteyg359]

Hardware SHA-WHAT? 1? 2? 3 (Keccak)? How many bits? The acronym SHA alone means pretty much nothing.

 

[OC4FUN/OC4LIFE]

If you like overclocking and keep benching from time to time then we have a benching team -> more info about how to join is here. Generally we are overclocking everything but mainly for hwbot rankings. Can also take a part in Overclocktagon.

Thanks for invite Woomack, I've read the requirements and will consider it.

In the meanwhile, I will stay Zen..

 

[mackerel]

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...ecture-details.2465645/page-132#post-38535254

Seen via LTT forums, contains some claims on clocks/TDP. I don't know anything about the poster making the claims but they seem to have some history.

 

[Kenrou]

8c/16t 3.5ghz 95w with Haswell performance doesn't seem bad at all to me ? for gaming you drop the HT, OC the 8 cores and enjoy the FPS

 

[EarthDog]

IPC is great, but the clockspeeds are LOW. Nobody here would care as we overclock, but, those that don't...

It really needs to come in around the 4GHz range to me. I mean Kaby Lake is going to be a 4.2 GHz base and 4.5GHz turbo... Starting out at 3.150GHz turbo all cores to 3.3 and one to 3.5GHz is a kick in the pants... a 100MHz kick in the pants to be exact for one core, 1.2 GHz for all cores.

 

[Johan45]

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...ecture-details.2465645/page-132#post-38535254

Seen via LTT forums, contains some claims on clocks/TDP. I don't know anything about the poster making the claims but they seem to have some history.

I read that quite a while ago wasn't sure it was worth repeating TBH.

8c/16t @ 3.2, I think the competition is 5960x @ 3.0. To maintain the TDP it's possible the 4c/8t model will be clocked similar to skylake in the 4.0 range.

 

[mackerel]

I'd further add that these claims are for ES CPUs. If AMD are anything like Intel, ES may operate at lower than what will become retail products. See this more as a minimum, not a maximum.