- Joined
- Sep 17, 2002
I buy computer speakers cos I'm 16 and I pay for all my own comp/entertainment parts, so Creative 5.1 system for $70 is a damn good deal.
-
Welcome to Overclockers Forums! Join us to reply in threads, receive reduced ads, and to customize your site experience!
I really dont understand the point of high end computer speakers
- Thread starter nealric
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2001
- Location
- The North Pole
Huh? Sound card with tubes? I did some searching, but all I can find is software wacuum tube simulators "Virtual Valve Amplifier".
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2002
- Location
- Hampton Roads. VA
Aopen made the board with the tubes. I know there are a couple reviews around the web on it....give me 5 mins to give you some links
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2002
- Location
- Hampton Roads. VA
BTW, I'm not that impressed with the board, but by request, here ya go :
http://www.aopen.com/products/mb/ax4b-533tube.htm
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/aopentube/
http://www.active-hardware.com/english/reviews/mainboard/ax4b-533-tube.htm
http://www.3dgameman.com/vr/aopen/ax4b_533_tube/video_review.htm
Even a future hammer board will have tubes
http://www.tomshardware.com/mainboard/02q4/021017/index.html
http://www.aopen.com/products/mb/ax4b-533tube.htm
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/aopentube/
http://www.active-hardware.com/english/reviews/mainboard/ax4b-533-tube.htm
http://www.3dgameman.com/vr/aopen/ax4b_533_tube/video_review.htm
Even a future hammer board will have tubes
http://www.tomshardware.com/mainboard/02q4/021017/index.html
I got creative 5.1 for $99, and I'm very happy. However without question there are many ppl who are more attuned to quality sound, who really have developed their ear beyond us normal Joes. To them I say "You go girl! Pursue your dream!" just please don't crank up that thud-thud bass so loud, it sounds really bad from 2 blocks away....
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2002
Taylor said:
Hey everybody, it's Taylor !!!! Welcome back, buddy! For a while I thought we lost you there.
(Oh, I see now that you've been back but I hadn't noticed)
How's the fishing? (Oh, scrach that! I do not want to hijack again
)And I see you got the 5th star. Congrats!!!
***opens a new window to PM Shadow to delete some of your old posts ....... LOL***
Anyway, take care!
____________________________________________
P.S. I knew about the motherboard with the tubes but I think that is a silly (but may be sucessfull) marketing ploy.
A sound card with tubes is better since you can put it in any motherboard you want. I just can not remember what company made them.
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2002
- Location
- Dunstable, uk
well im getting me a marantz sr-5300rds. gonna be delivered in a week or so.
rated at a moderate 90watts rms x6 (into 8ohms).
also im current using a creek 5120s2 amp bridged to drive my 12in lightning audio sub (gonna be replaced by the marantz monoblock - 180watts rms @4 ohms)
yes im a marantz fan - but the marantz is a damn fine amp - especially when it comes to music.
now as far as the tubes go - waste of money.
like it has been said before, the system is only as good as the weakest link. as soon as you plug those tubes into a regular mosfet amp - they are totally wasted.
better sound quality would be had by using a regular sound card and a tube amp - but we all know how much they cost! lol
rated at a moderate 90watts rms x6 (into 8ohms).
also im current using a creek 5120s2 amp bridged to drive my 12in lightning audio sub (gonna be replaced by the marantz monoblock - 180watts rms @4 ohms)
yes im a marantz fan - but the marantz is a damn fine amp - especially when it comes to music.
now as far as the tubes go - waste of money.
like it has been said before, the system is only as good as the weakest link. as soon as you plug those tubes into a regular mosfet amp - they are totally wasted.
better sound quality would be had by using a regular sound card and a tube amp - but we all know how much they cost! lol
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2002
- Location
- Seattle, WA
Wowl...look at all the responses....nifty
Lessee....
Marantz. Yeah. Excellent stuff. Always liked marantz, always will.
High-end headphones. You're absolutely right....a great pair of headphones will outdo a basic speaker setup any day of the week. Of course, they tend to COST right around the same ballpark too (300 bucks, give or take).
Energy. When I first started retail, I dealt with the Energy line. When their encore system was first introduced, it had style and power at a decent price...I haven't kept up with them, but Energy probably makes one of the better cost-efficient quality setups I've heard. Their Take 5.1 or 5.2 system has been raved about for years, and probably still is.
Yamaha. As stylish as that RP-U200 looks....for 450 bones, you can get yourself one hell of a A/V receiver. (Denon AVR-2803 comes to mind). It may not have the looks, but for the money....why not.
/end rant-and-rave session
Lessee....
Marantz. Yeah. Excellent stuff. Always liked marantz, always will.
High-end headphones. You're absolutely right....a great pair of headphones will outdo a basic speaker setup any day of the week. Of course, they tend to COST right around the same ballpark too (300 bucks, give or take).
Energy. When I first started retail, I dealt with the Energy line. When their encore system was first introduced, it had style and power at a decent price...I haven't kept up with them, but Energy probably makes one of the better cost-efficient quality setups I've heard. Their Take 5.1 or 5.2 system has been raved about for years, and probably still is.
Yamaha. As stylish as that RP-U200 looks....for 450 bones, you can get yourself one hell of a A/V receiver. (Denon AVR-2803 comes to mind). It may not have the looks, but for the money....why not.
/end rant-and-rave session
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2001
- Location
- The North Pole
slipknot said:
AC97 with tubes?!? LOL what a joke
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2001
- Location
- The North Pole
Avatar28 said:
Oh did I forget to mention that I have 2 sets of "satellites"? The scan-speak is for movies and the computer alone. I have a 3-way floor stander built solely out of PA components. Measured specs: efficency 98 db/1w/1m, max measured output 127 dB(150 dB peak)@1000 watt input. Amplifier borrowed Crown MacroTech 5002vz: 2 x 1775 watts@20-20kHz 0,1% thd kickass monster poweramp cost like 5000 dollars or something. I blew the crossovers but man it was loud
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2002
- Location
- Seattle, WA
Henry Rollins II said:
I'm surprised you didn't blow more than that
If you fancy a listen, and if you have a dealer near you, find a company that carries the REL line of products. See if they have a Studio III that you can take a listen to.
If you've never felt a 12hz test tone....you're definitely in for an experience.
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2001
slipknot said:I'm a little late to the party, but I have couple things to say/respond too :
1) "Good speakers cost more then 1200+" ----This is far from the truth. Here are some KICKA$$ highly rated speaker manufactures.
Energy (the connoisseur line is the sweet spot)
PSB
Axiom Audio
Paradigm (Studio line is very nice)
Phase Technology
This list could be MUCH larger, but it gives you an idea. I know all of those guys produce very expensive speakers, but they also produce great mid-range speakers.
2) I don't know about you guys, but I would take a nice highend pair of headphones over computer speakers anyday. I came to this conclusion when I was playing a game called system shock2 a couple years ago. I swear I almost wet my self playing that game late at night in a dark room. Headphones really get me into a game. *Most* computer speakers can't do this for me.
3) "speakers are by far the most important part of your audio system" -- I beg to differ...ALOT..... Speakers are but one part of the equation. If you take a nice high-end set of speakers and match them up with something cheap $150 technics reciever, you will get $150 sound. PERIOD. I've heard testing done like this and entire instruments will dissapear. The sound will become very FATIQUED. There is no pounding in the low end and no pizzazz in the highend of the spectrum. It just doesn't work. You MUST match your system up correctly. Even the wrong cabling can cause this to happen.
4) Here goes my current dream PC sound setup. Does it take up alot of room. YES. Would it cost alot. YES. Would it destroy any dedicated PC speaker setup. ABSOLUTLY
YAMAHA CAVIT RP-U200 RECIEVER
ENERGY ENCORE SYSTEM
*note* I would probably never buy this because I'm completely happy with my headphones
Why would a guy have a pair of martin logan electrostats powered by a 200 dollar JVC reciever, if your theory of amplification was right? Do you really think that guy is dumb enough to buy a cheap reciever if it made a difference in sound quality? The speakers are the weakest link, period. It is easy for an amplifier to increase a signal, or a DAC to convert a digital signal to analog. But it is not easy for a loudspeaker to convert electrical energy to mechanical sound energy. Just look at a loudspeaker's efficiency, most are less than .5% efficient!!!
If you think you can hear the difference between amplifiers, please contact Richard Clark at www.carsound.com or Tom Nousaine, they both do tests all the time to prove their are no audible differences between amplifiers. Before you slam me for saying that their are, remember we are talking about audible differences in an amplifiers linear range. Check it out:
http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18815
I reallize this must come as a shock to you guys, but quite frankly it makes perfect sense if you read over the rules.
One of the reasons you might think their is a difference, is because the levels are not matched properly. If one amplifier is 1dB louder than another, it will sound different, and can be distinguished by many people. The problem is, that tests are not conducted scientifically, and when you take Richard Clark's test, you will find he has thousands and thousands of dollars worth of calibration equipment to match the amplifiers.
Don't fret though, I am in no way saying you should drop your expensive amplifiers and run. There are MANY MANY reasons why you should buy a quality amplifier, such as build quality, power output, ability to drive low impedence loads, and duribility and looks. I am saying however, if you think buying an expensive amplifier will allow magnificent sound quality, you are really buying for the wrong reasons. If amplifiers made such a sound quality difference, I doubt the guy with Martin Logan electrostats running off a JVC reciever would be happening.
Remember this though, if you REALLY can hear the difference between amplifiers, Richard Clark has 10 thousand dollars for you.
As for the cabling, yes I agree, you need good cables, make sure you get thick enough wire so that their is not an appriciaable voltage drop between the amplifier and the speaker, home depot has some 14awg for 25 cents a foot I believe. And for the low level interconnects, if you get noise in your system, the 2 dollar variaty might not do.
Oh and that Aopen motherboard should win gimmick of the year. Those tubes on the motherboard cant be good for keeping the heat of the case down.
P.S. I use a techincs 250 dollar reciever!
P.P.S. I hope a flame war does not start.
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2002
- Location
- Seattle, WA
No flame war....just a quote from Martin Logan's website:
A. The power amplifier is one of the most important elements in any A/V system, as too little power will not allow your system to live up to its full potential. In general, we recommend 100-200 watts per channel, which is fine for most systems. That said, you should consider both your musical tastes and the size of your listening room. What type of musical content do you prefer and what listening level do you like the best—ambient, loud, or somewhere in between?
For instance if your listening preferences lean more toward chamber music, solo, or acoustic performances, then a smaller power amp will be adequate. On the other hand, if you enjoy symphonic music or rock—particularly at live listening levels—then you will need a larger power amplifier. This is because, for the most part, chamber music doesn't require the extended volume range that symphonic or rock music performances do to fully reproduce the performance.
Another important consideration is the size and character of your listening room. Character refers to its acoustic qualities. Does your room have a bright (reflective) or dull (absorptive) quality? Bright rooms are distinguished by their large flat hard surfaces, and dull rooms by their draperies and wall-to-wall carpeting. As a general rule larger rooms and duller rooms require more power to get the same live performance level.
Also, many Dolby, DTS, and THX 5.1 channel home theater/music systems incorporate amplified subwoofers (the .1)which rely on your processor's bass management calibrations to reproduce the lower bass and sub-bass frequencies (80-100Hz and below). In this case, a portion of the power amp's output will be handled by the subwoofer amplifier, leaving more power available to the rest of the system. This allows the use of more moderately powered amplifiers while maintaining high levels of performance.
Your amplifier should also be capable of stable operation into a varying impedance load—delivering more power into lower impedance loads. This is because most musical content presents a constantly varying load to your amplifier with power requirements tied to the frequency of that content—as frequency rises, impedance drops and power requirements increase. The main idea is to have enough reserve power to handle transients like explosions, cymbal crashes, and other loud passages without overloading your amp.
Key part of that passage: stable operation into a varying impedance load. To my knowledge, most receivers are rated at 8 ohms, and conservatively at 4 ohms, and that's "sometimes". Electrostatic speakers can vary all the way down to 2 ohms. There isn't a receiver built as of yet that can handle those requirements.
They're right though....it's all based on listening preference.
A. The power amplifier is one of the most important elements in any A/V system, as too little power will not allow your system to live up to its full potential. In general, we recommend 100-200 watts per channel, which is fine for most systems. That said, you should consider both your musical tastes and the size of your listening room. What type of musical content do you prefer and what listening level do you like the best—ambient, loud, or somewhere in between?
For instance if your listening preferences lean more toward chamber music, solo, or acoustic performances, then a smaller power amp will be adequate. On the other hand, if you enjoy symphonic music or rock—particularly at live listening levels—then you will need a larger power amplifier. This is because, for the most part, chamber music doesn't require the extended volume range that symphonic or rock music performances do to fully reproduce the performance.
Another important consideration is the size and character of your listening room. Character refers to its acoustic qualities. Does your room have a bright (reflective) or dull (absorptive) quality? Bright rooms are distinguished by their large flat hard surfaces, and dull rooms by their draperies and wall-to-wall carpeting. As a general rule larger rooms and duller rooms require more power to get the same live performance level.
Also, many Dolby, DTS, and THX 5.1 channel home theater/music systems incorporate amplified subwoofers (the .1)which rely on your processor's bass management calibrations to reproduce the lower bass and sub-bass frequencies (80-100Hz and below). In this case, a portion of the power amp's output will be handled by the subwoofer amplifier, leaving more power available to the rest of the system. This allows the use of more moderately powered amplifiers while maintaining high levels of performance.
Your amplifier should also be capable of stable operation into a varying impedance load—delivering more power into lower impedance loads. This is because most musical content presents a constantly varying load to your amplifier with power requirements tied to the frequency of that content—as frequency rises, impedance drops and power requirements increase. The main idea is to have enough reserve power to handle transients like explosions, cymbal crashes, and other loud passages without overloading your amp.
Key part of that passage: stable operation into a varying impedance load. To my knowledge, most receivers are rated at 8 ohms, and conservatively at 4 ohms, and that's "sometimes". Electrostatic speakers can vary all the way down to 2 ohms. There isn't a receiver built as of yet that can handle those requirements.
They're right though....it's all based on listening preference.
Klipsch Pro-Media 5.1 works great for me. My home entertainment system is my computer.
BOSE don't makes good speaker..... yes.... don't be shock about that statement... they makes speakers that produces sound wave like human ear likes.... however, was BOSE speaker close to the real sound at the point of recording is made? Far from it.
One of my buddy set up a home threater system for a rich dude in town. The entire system cost US$ 20k. No kidding, I would rather buy a new car for that kind of $. (the rich dude is driving a porche)
I am happy with Klipsch Pro-Media 5.1.... it is THX.... and I have no clue what does that do for me.... (maybe I need to write an email to george lucas about THX certification)
BOSE don't makes good speaker..... yes.... don't be shock about that statement... they makes speakers that produces sound wave like human ear likes.... however, was BOSE speaker close to the real sound at the point of recording is made? Far from it.
One of my buddy set up a home threater system for a rich dude in town. The entire system cost US$ 20k. No kidding, I would rather buy a new car for that kind of $. (the rich dude is driving a porche)
I am happy with Klipsch Pro-Media 5.1.... it is THX.... and I have no clue what does that do for me.... (maybe I need to write an email to george lucas about THX certification)
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2002
- Location
- Hampton Roads. VA
Azzkiller said:
Why would a guy have a pair of martin logan electrostats powered by a 200 dollar JVC reciever, if your theory of amplification was right? Do you really think that guy is dumb enough to buy a cheap reciever if it made a difference in sound quality? The speakers are the weakest link, period. It is easy for an amplifier to increase a signal, or a DAC to convert a digital signal to analog. But it is not easy for a loudspeaker to convert electrical energy to mechanical sound energy. Just look at a loudspeaker's efficiency, most are less than .5% efficient!!!
If you think you can hear the difference between amplifiers, please contact Richard Clark at www.carsound.com or Tom Nousaine, they both do tests all the time to prove their are no audible differences between amplifiers. Before you slam me for saying that their are, remember we are talking about audible differences in an amplifiers linear range. Check it out:
http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18815
I reallize this must come as a shock to you guys, but quite frankly it makes perfect sense if you read over the rules.
One of the reasons you might think their is a difference, is because the levels are not matched properly. If one amplifier is 1dB louder than another, it will sound different, and can be distinguished by many people. The problem is, that tests are not conducted scientifically, and when you take Richard Clark's test, you will find he has thousands and thousands of dollars worth of calibration equipment to match the amplifiers.
Don't fret though, I am in no way saying you should drop your expensive amplifiers and run. There are MANY MANY reasons why you should buy a quality amplifier, such as build quality, power output, ability to drive low impedence loads, and duribility and looks. I am saying however, if you think buying an expensive amplifier will allow magnificent sound quality, you are really buying for the wrong reasons. If amplifiers made such a sound quality difference, I doubt the guy with Martin Logan electrostats running off a JVC reciever would be happening.
Remember this though, if you REALLY can hear the difference between amplifiers, Richard Clark has 10 thousand dollars for you.
As for the cabling, yes I agree, you need good cables, make sure you get thick enough wire so that their is not an appriciaable voltage drop between the amplifier and the speaker, home depot has some 14awg for 25 cents a foot I believe. And for the low level interconnects, if you get noise in your system, the 2 dollar variaty might not do.
Oh and that Aopen motherboard should win gimmick of the year. Those tubes on the motherboard cant be good for keeping the heat of the case down.
P.S. I use a techincs 250 dollar reciever!
P.P.S. I hope a flame war does not start.
I agree with you 100% about that Aopen board, but back to the other disscusion
It all comes do to FATIGUE. When you amp can't reproduce a signal acurrately it doesn't matter what speakers you are using. The peaks and valleys just dissappear from the music or become distorted badly. I wish I could remeber the test track I heard, but the the highs sound horrible. Very harsh. The low end of the track sound muddy, Kind of like rolling thunder. When we switch to a better amp, it was a whole new world. Everything had definition. It was a complete 180.
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2001
- Location
- The North Pole
Azzkiller said:
So if I tell him I can hear a difference he will give me 10.000 bucks? I beleive that.......NOT
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2001
Henry Rollins II said:
Well, if you take the test and can actually distinguish the correct amplifier 12 out of 12 times, then yes, you will get the money.
Its a double blind test, a switching mechanizm changes between the two amplifiers, without him or you knowing which amplifier it is each time. Only the computer knows. Only when the test is over do you know if you won or not.
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2002
- Location
- Hampton Roads. VA
Let me clairfy another item here Azzkiller.
At low to moderate listening levels, you may not be able to hear the difference between a highpower and lower power amplifier. But at higher volumes (like how I watch my movies) you will. If you ask a low watt amp to continually produce sound near its peak power rating, the sound will contain MUCH more distortion and artifacts then at lower levels. This is normal with any power amplifier when it reaches it peak.
Another problem you find with cheaply made amps is that they over-estimate what they can really do. Most of the time, they can never hit their max power output because each individual channel is sharing transformers and power supplies. A high end amp is completed the opposite. Normally, their power ratings are very conservative and the amp will have no problem exceeding the manufactures specs.
Look at this HERE . Notice how the power output is higher in 2 channel mode then in 5 channel mode. That is a dead ringer that the amplifier is sharing major components. I'm not trying to dog Harmon kardon, because I use a Harmon Kardon AVR55 in my bedroom at the moment. But I know that my parasound amp will RAP it at higher volumes.
Take a look at this review too and you will see why I am trying to make this point. The amp in the review is insane power wise, but the writer makes some great points about power and wattage.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_5_1/cinepro3k6.html
At low to moderate listening levels, you may not be able to hear the difference between a highpower and lower power amplifier. But at higher volumes (like how I watch my movies) you will. If you ask a low watt amp to continually produce sound near its peak power rating, the sound will contain MUCH more distortion and artifacts then at lower levels. This is normal with any power amplifier when it reaches it peak.
Another problem you find with cheaply made amps is that they over-estimate what they can really do. Most of the time, they can never hit their max power output because each individual channel is sharing transformers and power supplies. A high end amp is completed the opposite. Normally, their power ratings are very conservative and the amp will have no problem exceeding the manufactures specs.
Look at this HERE . Notice how the power output is higher in 2 channel mode then in 5 channel mode. That is a dead ringer that the amplifier is sharing major components. I'm not trying to dog Harmon kardon, because I use a Harmon Kardon AVR55 in my bedroom at the moment. But I know that my parasound amp will RAP it at higher volumes.
Take a look at this review too and you will see why I am trying to make this point. The amp in the review is insane power wise, but the writer makes some great points about power and wattage.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_5_1/cinepro3k6.html
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2002
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ USA
I guess thats why I play with computers...you an have a kickass setup and not have to spend $50k. Maybe I'll get into home audio more when I make my first million...maybe my second million. The first million will surely go to cheap women and booze.
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2002
- Location
- Dunstable, uk
azz-killer: amplifers will all sound the same - if the had the same distortion characteristics. But they dont.
that is what makes all amps individual, what makes tube amps sound warm, and so on. you of course should allready know this
that is what makes all amps individual, what makes tube amps sound warm, and so on. you of course should allready know this
