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Which side do YOU take in this?(Creative and Daniel_K)

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I love to see threads that bring awareness to such topics, I can honestly say that because of this thread and the thread on the creative website that I will not be purchasing another Creative product for the foreseeable future.
 
I feel sorry for people who have creative stock, it's not going to come back and the company is just going to hemorage money from now on until they go bankrupt or someone buys them.

Monopolies are bad mkay.

I had nothing but problems with my audigy 2 ZS in vista, onboard sound > creative at this point imo.

Audigy 2 ZS was the best card they ever made(when speaking hardware and ability). This X-Fi crap they make now just repeats the same stuff that they had in the Audigy, except they have broken the cards up into categorization, ie. XtremeGamer, Xtreme Audio... I think they can just take their products and shove them up....<--you get the point :)

I have Daniel_K's back in this 100%. Creative may have full legal rights to this but, legal isn't always right. I am sure if this makes it to CNN or Fox, the media will paint an awful picture for Creative in the enthusiast market but, the regular EU market will not care at all. I hope Daniel_K starts his own company and buys out Creative for a mediocre amount just to put the pricks in their place.
 
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You know, the person that posted that on their forums should be fired.
If it was a "legal" issue with Daniel, the legal staff should have taken care of it with a cease and desist order.
But it looks like Creative didn't seem to be too concerned about customer satifaction on driver support and compatibility..
Sounds alot like what Motorola's ceo is doing to that company. Too focused on the dividends than making good products.
 
You know, the person that posted that on their forums should be fired.
If it was a "legal" issue with Daniel, the legal staff should have taken care of it with a cease and desist order.
But it looks like Creative didn't seem to be too concerned about customer satifaction on driver support and compatibility..
Sounds alot like what Motorola's ceo is doing to that company. Too focused on the dividends than making good products.

Exactly, why would they want to generate all that negative feedback. I mean its past 120 pages all slamming Creative.
 
This is what you call "backfire" :D

I hope Creative suffers, I'd love to see them crawling on their knees just to get through (actually doing work)...it will be good for them!
 
I feel sorry for people who have creative stock, it's not going to come back and the company is just going to hemorage money from now on until they go bankrupt or someone buys them.

Monopolies are bad mkay.

I had nothing but problems with my audigy 2 ZS in vista, onboard sound > creative at this point imo.

Anyone who continued to hold Creative stock well AFTER the tech bubble burst deserves to lose lots of money. They should stick to keeping up with inflation with CDs :p

Creative has been dealing with a declining need for their products for years with the advent of quality on board sound. This public relations debacle combined with their bad rep for driver support could just end up being a stake through their heart. Considering their products of recent years, I don't think it's a great loss to anyone, but their unfortunate shareholders. Fortunately, I'm not one of them, but I have my own problems, I have Toshiba stock. :eek:

Cheers! :beer:

R7

It's hard to call onboard quality, it's just not as craptastic as it used to be and is sufficient for the majority of users, even those who listen to multimedia semi-casually or haven't ever had the pelasure of listening to really nice gear.

You know who should hire Daniel_K...Auzentech ;) They know they are a niche company and don't act otherwise but with custom drivers officially sanctioned by Creative or others like C-Media they could take their special hardware to another level. Asus is providing some good competition which is nice to see especially given how Vista handles sound. Can't wait for Creative to sue them over the emulated EAX Asus has touted recently :rolleyes: I wonder how Asus can promote that, legally wouldn't they need Creative's approval to put it on boxes as an official feature? Then again it won't matter in a few years nothing will use EAX.

I've got an Auzentech Prelude which had a bug or two but got fixed fairly quickly and I'm still pleased with the sound quality but for multimedia I'd say a USB DAC or optical out to an amp or a receiver is as good a deal.
 
Creative should of just hired him or told him this privately. Posting it publicly is such terrible PR. The best Creative sound card I've had to date has been the X-Fi, of course I don't use Vista so maybe that's why.

I can't blame Creative for going on the defensive since he asked for donations (Stupid move on his part), they are all about making money just like every other business.
 
I agree that is was really dumb of them to post something like this in their public forum.

I do kind of hope that this really hurts Creative (and with the really big buzz it's created I think it possibly could). If they bomb then hopefully there can be some kind of industry wide standard for 3D audio not proprietary EAX. Of course it'll suck for games that are already coded for EAX. But perhaps if they tank someone could be good enough to buy them up and do the right thing. I just don't like that I have to buy a Creative card if I want the best gaming card. Perhaps if we could get some good competition and make this similar to ATI/Nvidia or AMD/Intel, it could make things better for us in the end. /wishful thinking.
 
Siding with Creative.

I *think* the fact that he is supposedly asking for donations infringes on it even more.

this is the key ... if he wasnt actively soliciting for donations/payment ... this would be a non issue and put creative in the hotseat for deliberately being jackasses ...

by actively seeking recompense for his efforts creative is well w/in thier rights to come down on him w/ the preverbial hammer

frankly i thought that the letter did exhibit some restraint and has given the guy a chance to desist w/o legal action

however as a consumer ... i wont be buying creative nor recomending it as system builder for a long time
 
ok so what about the optimized drivers for Video cards? I have not heard about Nvidia or AMD coming out against the optimized drivers.

I am assuming that Creative didnt like the slap in the face of saying that "We cant get them working in Vista" or "we are working on it" but yet one guy in his spare time managed to do what Creative's entire driver team had not done in a year?

ATI has never willingly opened code source for their drivers ... thats why they take so long to mature - nvidia has - its in the manufaturers best interest not to keep supporting the older cards sad to say tho nvidia's unified drivers do

the peeps that really need to be slapped BIG time about unified drivers are the printer manufaturers starting w/ HP ... infact i wish someone would edit and rewrite those
 
this is the key ... if he wasnt actively soliciting for donations/payment ... this would be a non issue and put creative in the hotseat for deliberately being jackasses ...

by actively seeking recompense for his efforts creative is well w/in thier rights to come down on him w/ the preverbial hammer

frankly i thought that the letter did exhibit some restraint and has given the guy a chance to desist w/o legal action

however as a consumer ... i wont be buying creative nor recomending it as system builder for a long time

I agree. If he was just doing it and distributing it for free I wouldn't see any problem with it and I would almost resort the "boo's, hiss's and F-Creative's" that everyone else is. I still think that he was doing a good thing, just that he shouldn't have asked for money for it. If Omega and all those video driver modders ask for donations as well, I'd say the same thing about them. Just because they are doing a good thing for everybody doesn't mean that it's right.
I think it's a good thing that I could go and get a TV show from a torrent if I chose to do so. I don't have a Tivo or any way to record them if I miss them. And the network's attempts at providing their shows online is pretty terrible so far. But, while I think it's a good thing that they are available this way, I still believe that it's wrong on an official stance. It's the same with this situation. Though I think it's really a good thing, officially I'd still say it's wrong. -Though I think Creative shouldn't have handled it differently; they made a big flub in that and I kind of hope they get some blowback from it.
 
Here what daniel had to say

ALchemy
It all started when Creative released the first beta of ALchemy for X-Fi cards, saying it used X-Fi's advanced capabilities (EAX5).
After some investigation, I've found an EAX5.0 check and patched it... and it worked!
Sometime later, they released the final version of ALchemy X-Fi and the paid version of ALchemy Audigy.
I was realy mad at them, they didn't release a new Audigy driver and were charging Audigy owners for a software that runs on top of bugged drivers? What is the point of that?
Then I modified the X-Fi "free" version of ALchemy, not the paid version.
I did the same with the later versions, but when they released the 1.00.11, I couldn't patch it anymore.
So I bought it, just for the sake of it.
Well, I did manage to patch the latest version of ALchemy X-Fi to run on any card, without even removing Safecast, but I'm done with that.


The Audigy drivers
They took several days, countless Vista reinstalls.
Creative purposedly modified the Audigy drivers to disable some features when Vista is detected and also purposedly introduced some bugs to prevent some XP utilities from running.
I did a complete analysis of the driver to determine where all the checks and bugs were introduced and started modding.
Features that I've successfully enabled:
- Dolby/DTS decoding (originally discovered by another Creative forum member, but I've explained how to use it)
- CMSS, CMSS2 and Stereo Surround (originally only "CMSS" was available, this setting also affects ALchemy/OpenAL, so it is really useful)
- Advanced EQ and Special FX presets
- DVD Audio
- Hardware MIDI synthetizer (I wrote a small utility that automatically detects and changes the default Vista MIDI Synth during driver install or can change it later using its GUI. Some media players lets you choose the MIDI synthesizer)
- Equalizer (with preset saving, very hard to accomplish, had to deal with bugs in Creative software and use my creativity to find a workaround).
- WaveRT (a Microsoft replacement for ASIO, however I don't know if it really works or not)


The Live!/Live! 5.1 drivers
Creative have always released UDA (Unified Driver Architeture) drivers.
They purposedly ruined the Live! support in Vista: 2.1 speakers setting resulted in distorted sound.
After some investigation, I discovered the culprit module and replaced it with one from the last XP version and the problem was fixed.
In the later releases, Bass Management, Equalizer and EAX effects using software processing and Hardware MIDI support were added.
There was also an ALchemy for Live! cards.



The X-Fi drivers
I've added the following improvements: Hardware MIDI and WaveRT.
I didn't have a X-Fi to test, so modding was then limited to these features.

The Audigy LS/SE/Value/Live! 24-bit drivers
Officially, they lack Bass Management, Equalizer and EAx effects, once available in XP drivers.
I've found that the Audio Center utility (originally from the Vista Audigy Advanced MB drivers) worked just fine with these cards, so I made it available.
Also fixed an annoying bug present in the official drivers that cause the speaker type changing to Full Range speakers on reboot (disabling Bass Management).

The X-Fi Xtreme Audio drivers
Have the same speaker type bug. I fixed it.


Gameport support pack for Vista
Allows a limited number of gameport controllers to work on the x86 version of Windows Vista.


What Creative didn't like
I've learned how Creative enables or disables a feature for a specific model.
Alchemy:
My last ALchemy release (1.00.08) was complately unlocked and could be used with any sound device from any vendor.
Audigy cards:
Successfully enabled the software-based X-Fi Crystalizer for use with Audigy cards.
X-Fi:
Got Dolby Digital Live enabled on any X-Fi card. To clarify, I still didn't manage to enable DDL on Audigy cards.
A friend of mine bought a X-Fi, so I could test it, it really works.
The only current X-Fi based card that supports DDL is the Auzentech Prelude.
The P17 to Xtreme Audio mod
P17 is the codiname for a simple PCI audio controller that powers the Audigy LS/SE/Value, Live! 24-bit and X-Fi Xtreme Audio host-based soundcards.
Completely modded the P17 drivers to transform any Audigy LS/SE/Value and Live! 24-bit into a X-Fi Xtreme Audio (enabling Crystalizer).


Modding is OK
I don't think there was something wrong with mods themselves.
Modding is a common practice among enthusiasts and I don't recall some company threatning a modder, unless you allow an exclusive feature to be used with competitor products (ie: SLI on non-NVIDIA chipsers or ALchemy on competitor products, as I've said before).
Remember the Promise Ultra to Fasttrak mod? It was even published on a well known review site.
There was also the GeForce to Quadro mod, the NVIDIA nForce 4 to SLI mod, also published on review sites.

What I did wrong
I've asked for donations.
Do I really need the money? No, thank God I don't.
I thought it would be ok to ask for donations so I could buy new hardware to support.
I did buy some hardware: an used Live! 5.1 for ~$15 and a new Audigy SE for $60.
Computer hardware is really expensive here in Brazil.
An X-Fi Xtreme Gamer costs about $240 here, with taxes and shipping, The same card can be bought for ~$80 in the US.
I just can't spend my money buying new hardware that I won't even use.
Even the features I've enabled, I don't use.
Later I tried to encourage donations to release the DDL feature for X-Fi and Crystalizer for Audigy.
I said something like "the more people donate, the faster I'll release".
This was even worse, but I was so eager to modding that I didn't think straight. I was hoping to get a X-Fi asap.
While I did ask for donations, once released, the downloads would be public.
I do recognize that I deserve some criticism for that.
To date, I've got $146, with amounts ranging from $1 to $50 (this value is still uncleared).
Reversing ALchemy was also wrong, I know. But I reiterate, what is the point of improving ALchemy and changing for it, when it requires an improved driver? It was my protest against Creative.


What Creative did wrong
- They publicly threatened me, just to show their arrogance.
If they had contacted me by e-mail or private message I would do the same thing (remove everything) and no one would know about their insatisfaction.
- Removed everything I posted in the forums, even if unrelated to the "forbidden" stuff.
If they can't provide better drivers, let people make their own choice.
- They did not recognize my hard work.
I've been supporting about every Creative PCI soundcard, would even support USB devices if I had one of them.
To date, the Audigy Vista Support Pack was downloaded about 20,000 times.


The current situation
DDL encoder and Crystalizer were not publicly released.
I've deleted the P17 to Xtreme Audio mod and ALchemy from FileFront (where I store the files).
I've been told they will allow me to continue with my mods, except the "forbidden" ones.
I'm also allowed to receive donations.
Download of my mods
http://hosted.filefront.com/braziliantech/
 
nope its creative and x64 with 4gb of ram or more if i leave 3gb i dont have the cracking sound in 2142 so its creative and when i use the prelude drivers by forcing it i dont get 5.1 but i get 2.1 working i dont have the sound cracking noise with my 8gb in so its deff xfi drivers, im just saving and going with either the prelude or asus card

I have none of the issues you described with my XFi platinum and Vista business 64 with 4Gb DDR2. It's been a solid sound board for me.

I think DanielK's driver set were only applicable to the older audigy sound cards.:confused:
 
this gent has talent.i cant imagine his money woes will last much longer.somebody will inevitably recognize his skill and make him a offer.

btw i dont care for creatives tactics one bit.the sooner they fall the sooner we will have truly innovative products to choose from.
 
I have none of the issues you described with my XFi platinum and Vista business 64 with 4Gb DDR2. It's been a solid sound board for me.
yea i know some ppl dont get it some do most ppl with xtremegamer card has the problem some dont so idk..im just probably going to get a prelude or asus card :D
 
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